Tags
faith, gay rights, GLBT, Heathen, Pagan, Pagan Rights, religious freedom, RFRA
It is a fundamental fact about power or politics. Smaller groups band together in an alliance in order to be able to stand up to larger groups. This helps preserve the existence of smaller groups and works to get both groups what they want. Such alliances can be powerful, but the last only as long as both groups work together for mutual benefit.
When one group throws another under the bus for their own gain, that ends the alliance, effectively. Because the abandoned group can no longer trust the betrayer to have their back. The sacred trust is broken, and so each must see to their own.
This is what the Gay Community has done with their relentless attack against RFRA laws.
At their core, RFRA laws are about protecting religious freedom for all religions. To date, religious freedom laws have been used to see that Muslims can have beards in prison (and now Heathens can too because of that ruling). A Native American was kept out of prison and allowed to keep his sacred eagle feathers, and many Native American tribes have been allowed the use of sacred hallucinogens. Pagans have been allowed their religious symbols and ritual items, and RFRA laws have been very, very important for allowing Pagan prisoners to have Pagan clergy for their religious needs, rather than having to rely on Christians, Jews, or Muslim clergy, especially in California, but other states as well. It allows Sikhs to wear their ceremonial daggers in places where weapons are banned. It allows Every religious person to wear symbols of their faith where ever they go.
Now, could an RFRA law be used by a Christian to defend themselves legally if they refuse to partake in something like a Gay Wedding? Potentially, but all the existent RFRA laws haven’t allowed that to happen. At best, the Christian would be able to argue they do not want to take part in a religious ritual that goes against their own religion, but then they could make the same case for not wanting to take part in a Satanic ritual.
But at their heart, RFRA laws are about preserving and defending the rights of religions, especially minority religions, from government control and force.
The Gay Community, however, has painted RFRA laws as nothing more than Gay bashing, homophobic excuses to discriminate against the GLBT+ community. They do not care about anything except a very slight chance that they would not be able to force someone who doesn’t agree with their lifestyle to do what the GLBT+ community wants. Simply because a Christian might have the option of not partaking in a Gay Wedding, the GLBT+ community have labeled all religious freedom laws as homophobic and evil.
They do not care about Pagan Rights. In leading the charge to have major business and other state government boycott states that try to affect a Religious Freedom Law, the GLBT+ community shows not only a complete disregard for any attempt to enshrine into law legal ways to defend and help Paganism obtain its full legal rights, they have shown a completely Fascist attitude to the rights of anyone but themselves, but especially to anyone that identifies themselves as religious. To further this end, Christians (like Memories Pizza) have been repeatedly threaten with real physical harm and the firebombing of their businesses.
That is behavior I would expect from ISIL or some other supremacist terrorist group. While anger would be understandable in the face of oppression, this level of violent rage in the face of mere opposition to their desires shames the GLBT+ community and puts us Pagans in an awkward place. Do we want to support such hateful and violent rhetoric and potential actions?
Many in the Pagan community like to laugh when we hear Christians complain that they are being persecuted. They’re the majority religion, and arguably the majority of citizenry in the USA. But at this point, the GLBT+ communities actions validate all those claims of persecution for Christians, but then spread that persecution to every minority religion, including Pagans, Heathens, Sikhs, Muslims, Native Americans, Buddhists, etc. Because RFRA laws allow us to argue for the legal right to do actions our faith requires that might be “morally” objectionable or Illegal based on the beliefs of others.
Let me repeat that: RFRA laws allow religious people to do what we are morally required to do by our religions, even if other people find those things objectionable and attempt to make them illegal or have made them illegal in the past to prevent the practices of minority religions.
Could that include Christians refusing to take part in a Gay “religious” ceremony? Yes. But that same inclusion is what would allow a Pagan to not take part in a Christian religious ceremony, or a Muslim to not take part in a Satanic ceremony, or a Sikh to take part in a Muslim ceremony. It allows us to not take part in religious rituals we object to, as much as it allows us to commit religious rituals others object to. So should we be forced to commit objectionable religious ceremonies simply because the GLBT+ community feels it is entitled to be able to do just that…all while stridently objecting to having to live by anyone’s morals but their own?
I say no, and any Pagan with any sense to realize what stripping away or denying legal protections for our religious freedoms should do the same. Not to mention supporting such gross hypocrisy. To support the idea that one community has the right to force other communities to live by its rules violates every ideal of equality and sets a dangerous precedent for other communities to come in and legally dictate morality for others. The GLBT+ community has not become what it always accuses the Christians of being and doing. Do we Pagans really want to stand in support of that action, when that blade can easily be turned to our own throats?
Legally, no Christian would be allowed to deny a Gay person service. In fact, most of the Christians I’ve heard from are happy to serve the GLBT+ community…just not at a wedding. Because it violates their moral conciseness. They will still serve them under pretty much every other situation, and do so happily. This law would not change every day business laws on discrimination. It might only have a chance, a chance not a certainty, of allowing a Christian shop owner not have to take place in a religious ritual they object to.
The ultimate sad fact to me is that RFRA laws could have gotten the GLBT+ community what they say they want the most: Gay Marriage. Because a successfully won RFRA case means the state has to legally recognize the right of the religion to commit an act/ritual/ceremony even if it otherwise is illegal in the state to do.
So if a pair of same sex Wiccans get married and they argued in court that theirs had to be a Legal Marriage because IT WAS PART OF THEIR RELIGION, and the court agreed…then Gay Marriage would be Legal. And the non-religious gay community could then point to that legal precedent and say “hey, if they can do it, why can’t we?”
And boom, legalized gay marriage.
But they didn’t do that. They refused to do that. Instead of being Pagan Allies, they are proverbially gunning us down as they try to hit the Christians. They are trying to cut down the laws that protect Pagan religions and their practices. Now, there are a lot of GLBT+ people in Paganism. Ours is one of the few religions out there that do not have any moral objection to that lifestyle or orientation. That’s one of the reasons so many Pagans were eager to jump in with the GLBT+ community several decades ago and in protesting the RFRA laws now. But Pagans failed to realize what these RFRA laws are doing for us and how important they are for Pagan Religions, and other Minority Religions.
So at this point Pagans, GLBT+ Pagans especially, have a choice to make. Are you going to base your identity on your sexual orientation or your religion? Which is more important to you, who you sleep with or who you worship? What matters most in your life: Your personal sex life or your Gods? Do you stand for equality and respect for everyone, or do you stand for using threats of violence and false narratives in order to force others to live by a moral code not their own?
What do you worship and hold most dear?
If you answer yourself, that your right to marry a person of the same sex and force others to aid you in your ceremonies against their will…why are you a Pagan? Why do you worship and pray to Gods when you put them of secondary importance to your own personal desires and gain? You dishonor them, and you dishonor yourself. Had you put your faith fully in them, it is possible you would have gotten gay marriage, but instead you spit in their faces for your own personal gain. Such things the myths tell us are acts of dangerous hubris which bring reprisals.
If you answer the Gods, then you cannot support attempt to curtail religious freedom, even if it offends you, because that freedom allows you to commit acts that offend as well. In keeping your faith, in putting the Gods first, you honor them and yourself, because you agree all should be free to live by their moral consciousness, even if it offends. You are showing not only them the highest respect, but all others the highest respect, because by allowing people to practice that which offends…you allow noble things like gay marriage to come into being.
I used to stand with the GLBT+ community. I supported their right to marriage, family, full legal rights. But they have not shown me the same respect. Their actions have shown me they would deny me my full legal rights…for their own personal convenience and pleasure. They have no respect for me, they are not my ally. So I cannot be their ally any longer and this saddens me.
The GLBT+ community has made their choice. They put themselves first, even above the needs of their allies, The Pagan Community. So the choice is on you, my fellow Pagans. Will you stand up for yourself, will you be Pagan, and your legal rights? Or will you allow yourself, your religion, and your Gods, to be a casualty for the GLBT+ community to win all they desire and let your freedoms die? Because that is the choice the GLBT+ community is forcing us to make with their actions against RFRA laws.
Son of Hel 
I don’t stand for the LGBT+ community. I saw this law for what it was, protecting my rights as a pagan and the right to practice my religion and worship my gods. But they have turned it into only about them and have ruined people’s livelihood. Yes, I feel that I’ve been thrown under the bus and their allies don’t care.
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Reblogged this on Witchery in the Express Lane and commented:
The LGBT community doesn’t care anything about my rights as a pagan. And when will the whole pagan community finally wake up.
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Pingback: A Scorched Earth Brings Only Fire | Son of Hel
The whole Gay community? Since when and how do you know what the whole Gay community wants or even does? May I point out that the Gay community is as varied, and as at odds with itself as the Wiccan, Pagan and Heathen community. No one represents, nor can speak for, the whole of the Gay community in the same way that no one can speak for the whole of the Wiccan, Pagans or the Heathen community.
Sort of like finding a single racist Heathen and then stereotyping all Heathens as racists.
Remember when you say Pagans can on longer be allies to the Gay community that you are also throwing under the bus the many Gay Wiccans, Gay Pagans, and Gay Heathens who are people in good standing in their communities. In the overall Gay Community there are only a few that would be violent people, just as there are only few that are political activists.
If you just want to not support the Gays who threat violence, I have no problem with that, because violent people are a danger to everyone. But if you go beyond that, then just admit that you don’t like Gay people and at least be honest about it.
Meanwhile Gay Pagans and Gay Heathens have been in every part of the fight for Pagan and Heathen religious rights. You don’t speak for anyone but yourself, because no one can speak for all of us. I have been a Wiccan and involved in Pagan religious rights now for thirty-one years and you certainly do not speak for me. I am also a disabled Marine Vietnam War veteran.
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If the gay community is varried in its belief…then where are the members of the gay community which defend RFRA laws and protest against those of the gay community who are trying to deny any RF law? If I hear only one voice, I can only presume there is but one voice on this issue.
And no, I am not “throwing under the bus” gay wiccans, pagans, or heathens. I am saying they must choose. Choose which is more important, their sexuality or their faith, because the most vocal members of the Gay community have forced that choice upon them. Will they stand for the legal protections and freedoms of their religions…or will they stand against those freedoms because the gay community could be inconvenienced by a christian possibly refusing to perform a religious ceremony counter to his morals. It is not I who drove the bus, nor threw anyone. I am merely the voice saying “here comes a bus, will you be thrown?”
GLBT+ members of the Pagan community have fought for our religious rights. Nearly the entire pagan community has fought for Gay Rights. But Now the Gay Community (at least that most vocal and active part of it) is out there now fighting against our Religious Rights. So now, as I said, Pagans of all sexual orientations face the fact that our rights are being fought against by those we have done nothing but help.
And no, I do not speak for you. I am speaking to you. Because you have a choice. Do you stand with that most vocal part of the Gay community which is trying to deny religious people protections under the law…or do you stand for your fellow Pagans, and all other religions, to have the legal protections they deserve under our constitution?
Now, you can deny that it is a choice you have to make. You can insist that “not all gay people.” But the fact is that the public faces of the gay community and the gay communities allies are fighting against RF laws, trying to expunge RF laws, and those RF laws are what give us the right to get our practices legalized if they are not already so we cannot be arrested and hunted down! You say you fought in Vietnam, you fought for the laws and sanctity of the freedoms of this nation. So do you support an attempt to abridge those freedoms, the freedoms of the Pagans whose rights you have fought for by any members of any community straight or gay, the whole of that community or not?
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You show you own bias. You don’t like the gay county as a whole regardless of what they do, or don’t do. You make up your straw man to attack and the claim that this is what the Gay county is doing. It is silly to true. I would suspect that you have rarely met any Gay people and are wholly ignorant of them. You calls suggest so.
I have no love for hate mongers and rabble rousers. You make a false claim saying that most Pagans support . That may e your perusal view ut you coat speake for the entire Pagan and Heather community.
It is as silly as saying that a mixed race person must choose between the Black community or the White community, the Indian Community or the White community or the Latino community or that a multi-race person has to pick just one community out of his/her heritage.
That is the very same binary view [Either/Or] that clouds the minds of the Christian bigots. So you appear no different from them. Bigots are destructive to every community including our own. Hate whoever you wish but the rest of the Pagan county is not going to follow your lead. There are always more than just tow choices to ay question so stop demanding to limit them for others.
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My bias, as you put is, is that if a group publicly stabs me in the back, I do not like the knife. I have many gay friends, as well as trans, who I have worked with for much time. Interestingly…they agree with me on what the public gay community is doing in response to these RFA laws. If I have a bias, it is against Fascists who insist that they be given all rights and that the beliefs and rights of others are offensive and should be struck down.
I think it is your bias and bigotry that show far worse than any of mine, for you appear to support such Fascism and call bigot any who protest their subjugation, simply because the subjugates are Gay.
But, if it is as silly to say that a gay pagan must choose between faith and pleasure as it is for a mixed race person to have to choose between black or white, then would they not have to choose if black or white started to slaughter each other? If life were to become a zero sum game, one cannot say “i am of both sides.”
I did not make this situation an either or. The vocal members of the Gay community fighting against the rights of Religious people have made it an either/or, despite your arrogant and violent denials. You attack me as a person, calling me bigot, but you have failed utterly to disprove any statement I have made about the fact that Pagans now face an either/or choice by the Gay Communities Public Face. You say there are more than two choices, but the choices you provide appear to be “bend over and take it.” If there is anything more destructive than a bigot, it is a Fascist quisling.
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Ah you make such arrogate assumptions to justify you own view. I laugh at your misconceptions of me. I am a Marine Vietnam Veteran and bend over for no body including noisy bullies.
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At this point, the only “assumption” i’m making is 1) you’re a name calling fascist (because that is the way you have acted in these comments) and 2) if you’re defending the gay community…you’re really a bang up job of it. You’re acting exactly like those attacking rfra laws, you are insisting that Pagans who disagree with you shut up. You may be a vietnam vet, but I fear that most horrid war has not made you the bad ass you believe.
It has merely convinced you that you can be a bully as long as you do it for the right political masters. For this, I am sorry that your life has led you to such a place, where instead of protecting the freedoms you fought for, you instead believe you can silence people you disagree with because we do not agree with you.
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I have never been a bully in my life or have I ever had a master, or do I desire to me But either do I attack a entire group of people like you do. You make wild claims about the group stabbing you in the back because some of them disagree with a law that you favor. Note that is some, not the whole of the group, and to even the majority of the group.You entire claim is phony from start to finish. You are pulling a con job. No group has attacked you, and no group has stabbed you in the back publicly, or privately in stealth. You are just posting another wild conspiracy theory.
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you’ve never been a bully?
You’ve called me names, denounced my character, and insulted my intelligence, All because you disagree with my position on this issue.
Those are the actions of a bully. You have committed those actions. Therefore, you are a bully.
And you have all done these things because your political agenda and beliefs are different from mine, and you feel that your group is in the right and I am in the wrong when I call them out for acting like fascists who do not respect the liberties of others. I would say that such makes them your “master.”
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Name calling is bad yet you started doing it yourself from the beginning. You talk of my political agenda. No politics involved just a matter of fairness responding to your continued false claims against the whole of the GLBT community . You blame on others what you do yourself. That is called projection of your faults on others. The after lying from the start class you to try to preyed that you are the victim. A a who tells direct lies ad attempts to rabble rouse against an entire groups of people has no character. You sir are a joke from start to finish. All I did was call you out and show what you actually are doing. The more you argue, the better that you prove my point. Grow up little boy!
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* * Grow up little boy! * *
Now THAT was very mature, NOT!
I would say that this article was more a public indictment of the mischievious antics that are glaringly apparent from the most-vocal of THAT community. Unfortunately, those of THAT community who disagree with THAT community’s political stance and general attitudes towards laws designed to defend the religious rights of others to disagree with their life-styles – is a deafening silence. The non-followers of the “group-think” within the “group” have yet to sound-off and be heard denouncing the actions of the supposed majority in the group.
Therefore,
The general meaning and context put forward by “the group”, is one of aggressive mischief against the free and equal rights of others to disagree with them. Looks to me, by reading your very own comments in response to the article and its author, that you are ALSO one who does not recognize the equally-valid rights of others to hold an opinion – especially when it differs from yours! – THAT is most immature of you. Therefore, how about YOU “grow up, little boy!”
There is a BIG difference between intelligent debate, and childish argument. Let He, who be the first to resort to argumentativeness and childish name-calling, be declared the loser in the debate of intellect and ideals.
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Reblogged this on hocuspocus13 and commented:
jinxx ♠ xoxo
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This is a great piece! Well written and articulated. I notice the “hate” thing coming out against you … the new “norm” is, it’s “hate” when you disagree with someone.
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Thank you for the like and positive comment. 🙂
And yes, sadly, the “hate” is the new norm.
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Yeah. And all that hate; Coming from groups that wish to be seen as full of “love” and “tolerance”, yet have open license to hate those they oppose.
I believe that be called “Hypocrisy”. My, oh my! Such times we live in, when “hypocrisy” is what it is really all about.
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Perfect! Heck, we’re “redefining” just about everything now!
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The “Hegelian-Dialectic” is so commonplace these days that it makes crystal clear communication very difficult. That, and all the “wonderful” education our public-school students get. ( *** SARCASM AND CYNICISM! *** )
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Reblogged this on The TOSSer By Temple Of The Standing Stones and commented:
While I wouldn’t go so far as this guy does in stating that he does bring up some valid points. Some that I too brought up in my post on Our Pantheons Way nearly a year ago in ‘CALLING SUPPORTERS ‘HOMOPHOBIC’ DOES NOTHING TO HELP YOUR CAUSE’ http://ourpantheons.org/calling-supporters-homophobic-does-nothing-to-help-your-cause/
It’s really not wise to throw your allies under the bus while flailing around for your own personal cause. Choose your battles wisely.
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* * Choose your battles wisely. * *
Unfortunately,
Most of the “politically-connected” groups fail this task miserably, whether by ignorance, or by choice. Most of these power-play groups are all about furthering the institution of controlled-speech and political-correctness. Could also be seen for what they are, by “following the money-trail” on WHO funds their beginnings and their massive campaign budgets.
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I found this article quite interesting in that the things which the author states is or could happen shows us as being too weak to stand up for what is EVERY American’s right – the right to practice our beliefs. I have never defined myself by my Hawai’ian indigenous beliefs, and for a very long time, even before it was “legal” to join two souls in marital union, I was performing union ceremonies, even though I knew, the couples knew that it was symbolic.
I cannot imagine where this fear is coming from, neither where it is that the idea that the majority if the LGBT community in my own locality, while very vocal about their rights, have always had my back, because they know that I am indeed their ally. And really, in my opinion, that is what it takes for those of us who do not follow mainstream beliefs – if we are to be who we are as we are and what we are in the eyes of a society blinded by fear of what they do not understand, then it is by all means on our shoulders and is our Kuleana (responsibility) to make it known that we exist, that not all LGBTs are going to stab us in the back and turn tail and not support us as much as we have always supported them.
My culture has always welcomed those who are of dual-souled nature, and we have always been they who have welcomed and listened, but these days, with the heat of the sovereignty battle for indigenous land rights of Hawai’ians, the last thing on the minds of Christians in the Hawai’ian islands is anything but who is marrying who and is more about who owns what land and where and why do they own it? Of course, we have to pay attention to geographical location, and in my case, I can sit here all day long and tell anyone willing to read it or hear it that what has been written here in regards to the LGBT community no longer supporting us and be very confused as to why anyone would believe such a thing, but that is because of where I live on this planet, which is Los Angeles County, CA = Southern California, and we are very open minded about a whole LOT here.
I suppose that what I am trying to state here is that our rights to practice our beliefs is protected, as was stated in this article, and for that reason alone, we really have nothing to worry about. I say let the suits worry about it because really,t hey are who is worried more than anyone else. My other thought is that these people who want to make it a religious rather than (technically) a property rights thing (and burial and SSI thing…I get it) are afraid of the scary belligerent gays….it might make our LGBT friend (gulp) actual human beings with actual rights to love, honor, cherish…not obey haha…but I think you get my point. We are as covered as anyone else is, and in this instance, what is happening when we choose fear over our rights that are ALL of our rights, that is when the suits and the powers that (think) they be win.
This time they actually have to fight to win, and not buy to win…that’s like handing a trophy to everyone on a little league team – never mind that they might not be good, and never mind we would rather save their feelings than tell them the truth…they got themselves a trophy and now they are temporarily happy….same thing in th is case if we think about it long enough.
We are not like everyone else, but we are granted the same rights as everyone else, and for that much alone…seriously…we got this…
Aloha
ROX
#TheManaoBlog
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You write a very sensible piece, but I suspect that you will be attacked here for it, and be considered to be part of the great conspiracy against the columnist here. [Grin]
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LOL…like I have never been attacked before…thanks for the warning 😉
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the only one attacking people here is you, Christopher. You shame only yourself and your cause.
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Do we have to worry about our liberties being stripped away? Perhaps not. As you say, they are protected by law and attempts to pass rfa laws further increase those protections.
The point is not the danger. The point is that the media of the Gay Community acts in a dishonorable manner, They act with a fascist attitude towards the rights of others to live by their moral code, and in acting in that fascist manner take actions that show a great disrespect to those Pagans who receive much needed protection from RFRA laws by mislabeling such laws as homophobic and bigoted.
I am happy that your local Gay community supports you and your religion, this is a good thing. But the public face has done something far different, I am afraid.
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You show that you are dishonorable and then claim it of others? You hardly are on the moral high ground. Would you like some Cheese with your whine? You are as bad as some of the extreme Christians, complete with phony conspiracy theories.
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With your every comment, you show your intolerance, your pettiness, and your own projection. Clearly, you have chosen your loins over the gods, to not call out fascists for the sake of who they fuck. I need not claim any high ground against you, for any ground has managed to be higher than your fascism and your bigotry. Cheese with my whine? I would not starve you of that feast of both which lies upon your table. If I am as bad as the Christians, then you are as bad as ISIL, likening any disagreement with your views as evil heresy that must be slaughtered and removed from society. Go back then, to your righteous lands and leave these Heathen ones to those who disagree with you, for your measure has been taken and you are as empty of being as the profile you link to, naught but angry twittering at those who dare disagree with you,but nothing of substance beyond your own petty anger. My words are not for you, for you have plugged your ears to all but your own self righteous voice.
For an old man, you are more a fool than this little boy has ever been or shall ever be. It seems wisdom has fled your brow as youth has fled your flesh.
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likening any disagreement with your views as evil heresy that must be slaughtered and removed from society.
Gee I have never used the word heresy nor have I ever suggested anyone should be slaughtered for disagreeing with me. What a mighty and dangerous straw man you have invented. You are so desperate to play the victim card. You are great at creating fantasy whole cloth from a non existent conspiracies by 1.2% of the entire population, to vague threats to your alleged freedom without presenting a single fact whatsoever.
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My friend,
Pay no attention to what the public face has done,because it is in private where matters such as these concerns are always seen to.
As a woman who is ordained, the one thing that I encounter with the “Public Face” are the mainstream pastors in my locale, and they are all the same – they forget that even as my beliefs are not mainstream, they are as protected, and I make positively sure that they each and all remember this.
It is the same way when I feel the need to defend my hanai ohana of LGBTs – it is wellknown that they are either for EVERYONE’S rights or they understand that I will never support a human being who is hateful toward others based only on beliefs, and that they ought to not forget who they are and what my role in their lives is
Continue your good fight…Aloha…ROX
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The funny thing law may make doing something more dangerous and threaten punishment but that has never stopped people from doing what they wish. Religion can be driven underground but they can survive and grow stronger under ground. I became Pagan in 1982 right at the begins of the Great Satanic Child Abuse Scare. the Pagan community was mostly in the closet. Just finding another Pagan took me two years of searching and that was how I food out about a Pagan festival. You had to know a Pagan to even hear about there being a festival. You paid a small fee and then you were sent instructions go down HWY# to mile post#34 and look for a red ribbon, showing where to turn down various dirt roads to the festival site. You were warned not to stop in nearby towns and tell anyone what kind of event that you were going to. The Moral Majority was gaining control of Congress and the media was full of conspiracy theories of alleged powerful and hidden Satanic groups in high places. The very lack of any evidence of any measurable Satanic groups much less big ors was considered proof of just how powerful that they were.
But you know something it was a wonderful time to be a Pagan. The events were smaller but you were among friends. No one was trying to become mainstream and acceptable. The Pagans back the were in many ways far freer to act Pagan. I have interviewed a lady who holds ceremony in a park in New York City who actually bragged that her ceremonies were so like Christian Church ones that those passing by would not be offended. If this is the price of becoming acceptable and mainstream then I think I will remain solitary.
Pagan religious varied from tribe to tribe locate to locations, and from person to person. Most did not have holy books, most had little or no dogma. Individuals were allowed to work with the gods their own way. No one worried about what people you came from even the captured slaves could join the religious regardless of what people they came from and eventually some became respected free members of the local tribe.
If we are going to become another branch of the Christian Church the why did anyone leave it in the first place. We now even Pagan fundamentalists claiming that you are not a real or proper Pagan if you do to believe and practice their way. One thing that I learned my first religion, Buddhism, was that people converting from one religion to another often carried a lot of baggage from one to the other. They might be in a different religion, but they still thought and acted about the new religion much the same as they did in the one they had left. I look forward to the day when we have mostly second and third generation Pagans and the old left over baggage from Christianity finally disappears from the Pagan community.
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Christopher:
I think I need to clarify. When I tell people to pay no mind to others, particularly the public face, I mean that there are things in this world that are brought here and to our awareness for purposes of ignoring it.
And yeah…I know what you mean about the whole idea that people have decided to follow when instead it is ours to lead. We are not meant to follow, because in following we tell Spirit that we are not meant to be leaders, not even meant to be Stand Alone. We are all Stand Alone in our own right. My thought about the Pagans meeting in a park and passing it off like they are doing Christian Church is a matter of someone just doing what they need to do, no matter the appearance, so as to exercise their right to practice, literally, what they preach. Of course, I can say all I want to about that, because, again, I live in Southern California, and here, it seems that we glorify those who are willing to go against the grain of things and speak up and out against the things that we know are not right and not meant for everyone.
I could never have a “church,” because I am a believer of my Ancestry’s ancient beliefs. Too many people in the times that the islands were taken over were forced to either convert, or be jailed. Again, there is that thing about the fear.
If we bothered to think about what we, ourselves, really wanted in terms of what it is that we follow, practice, preach, share, and we asked us the same things that we might ask those who would join our gatherings, we would be easier able to identify who is doing their thing for ego reasons, and who is doing their thing for reasons that are no one’s business, and who, by and large, are simply and only doing their thing. I am in that third group of people, who is simply and only just doing their thing. This is not to say that I do not understand the ego thing, neither the “no one’s business” thing, because I understand both of them, and in both of those tings we find that there are always going to be facets of the human side of things where we need and want to be accepted by our peers. If we do not find that acceptance some of us go the route of “simply just doing our thing.” For the most part, though, I must agree with your stating that things were much nicer for us who are “of the Astral, but not of the same cloth” because of that feeling of belonging. When we cannot find it, we will create it, and this is when the fun starts, because this is when we start making rules for other humans who, at first, wanted just to hang with other people who understood us.
When we start “legitimizing” the Tribe is when the tribe begins to no longer be the living entity that it is meant to be and becomes the living entity that is governed…and we all kn ow what happens when things are literally governed…
Indeed, when we leave on religion and choose another, we find that some of the things that we believed, we still believe, and that some of what we are learning we have a hard time accepting. This is the reason why we sometimes will, if we cannot find others like us, which you did not stop until you found others like you, we will create a place where others like us can convene. Convening is a great idea…until it becomes a legitimized-by-the-government type thing.
Then it is just another person, at least in my opinion, seemingly needing to have what others have that we believe we cannot have for ourselves. There is nothing right, neither wrong, with that, until we make that legitimacy something that is, in and of itself, also a living and breathing entity.
ROX
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Thank you. It’s the first time I’ve seen an Pagan/Heathen/alternative religious perspective that actually validates what I’ve been feeling (and saying) about this whole debacle. And even if I didn’t agree before reading it, I would agree now, after reading it. Very well written!
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well thank you 🙂
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Does anyone every wonder why the Gays aren’t running out in droves to get married?
As I read written by the majority of gays they don’t believe in marriage
As so do some heterosexual people
So why then is this matter of Gay Marriage Equility currently in front of the Supreme Court?
According to the Gay Community…
That group are straight left wing liberal radical democrates who could careless about gay marriage gay equality or gays in general
The end to their means is to end all religion in America
It’s not a Christian battle but a battle for all religious beliefs and practices
The true gays don’t speak out due to retaliation…black balled…boycotted…threats to themselves family friends and companion…and of course the notorious name calling
And have we not seen that…
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you raise a very interesting point. Indeed, the lawyer for gay marriage before the supreme court recently said he had no interest in the larger ramifications of the ruling, or how it might allow polygamous people to marry. In fact, I recall he said something along the lines of “we don’t care/don’t want that to happen.”
And your right, those of the gay community who disagree are too afraid to speak out against what is happening. If the foul comments of Christopher Blackwell teaches anyone anything about this article, it is that decent with the party line is to be scourged without mercy. It is little wonder that as many speak up as do.
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Gay people have a variety of views much as Heathens have a variety views. That is why talking about the as a groups does not work. I have noted places where dozens of Gay couples of lined up to get marriage licenses. At the same time I notice that fewer straight couples get married right away, often living together for years ad having a raising children together for sometime before they get married or if they get married Again each person is only responsible for what they do and represent only themselves. The entire group is to responsible for what any single person in the group does.
You as a Heathen should understand that as Heathens faced a lot of bad press because of a few Heathens that were less than honorable. I have interviewed a growing her of Heathens and take part is a few Heather forums. It has been an interesting learning experience. In doing interview my own opinion is ever brought out because it is the interiewee’s story, not mine. So I ask the for background material and that is what is used to form up the questions. I learn what is important to the and that is what I ask about. That comes from my own personal experiences at being interviewed where most of the interview usually ends up being the reporter’s interpretation of what is said. I do the same interviewing, Pagans, Polytheists, Druids, Wiccans, Ceremonial Magicians, and so forth. The same goes for the various minorities with in those groups. Then the reader that are curious read what they are curious about and make up their own minds. What they discover is that none of the stereotypes work because the groups are more varied than they might of thought.
This is hat I have learned over the last seven years years of doing interviews. So when anyone tries to claim anything of any group I am going to take them to task over it because it is simply not true.
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The difference between this situation of the GLBT community vs RFRA laws and your example of Heathen’s having different views is that Heathens voice those different views and will call each other to task when they act like shitty people. The GLBT community has been resoundingly Silent in terms of decent from the Fascist actions of those GLBT community members who have been acting as I and others have described.
A different opinion means nothing IF YOU DO NOT VOICE IT. And if the only voices I hear are ones like yours, which resort to bulling, name calling, and intolerance, THEN THAT IS THE VOICE THAT MATTERS. Other Gay people can disagree with that voice, but when they do not speak, when they do not call to task those they do not agree with who use supremacist tactics, then their voice does not matter and has no power.
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I must interject here –
Realize, if you will, that when we are talking about marriage and the LGBT community, it is not only about the right to marry, but more about being seen and documented as having the same and equal rights that any other straight American would have. That is really what this is all about. As the lawyer stated, it is nothing that he cares about, the marrying part, but as I have been told, not only by the idealistic college students in my area (I live in a college town that is neighbored by three other college towns…LOTS of idealists here), but also by the many educators, law enforcement, local politicians, citizens in this county, it is not their right to marry that they are fighting for. They are fighting to be seen as equal and good enough to be afforded the same rights to a happy, family oriented lifestyle.
There is nothing wrong with that. At all. The “wrong” involved is when the very few in the LGBT community choose to make it ONLY about marriage, and ONLY about attacking what is not like them. It would be THESE people who are the proverbial fly in the vaseline.
We can never forget the one thing that is common to ALL of us on this planet, and that one very common thing is that we are ALL flesh and blood and given to the exact same emotions, good or bad, as anyone else will. The reason why it is that the religious …humans… in this country are up in arms about things is because of the idea that I just said, which is that people, by and large, will always feel very threatened by what is not like them. People will always try to make things that make them uncomfortable go away from their sight. People will always hate on those who they deem as weaker than they are, and people will always have that one thing that is the same about us all – free will.
This is something that ALL politicians and people in perceived power know – that thing called free will that is NOT touted in churches because in church they need us to conform. I know this because I am a product of a strict born again upbringing. I was not like everyone else. I was gifted and my parents knew it, and they feared it. I grew to realize that the reason they made me feel like a freak is because they were too scared that what I was would crumble the things that they were trying to instill in me through the use of a big scary god and which were the very things that they wanted me to believe, and they were like this because as a child I was as headstrong as I am now.
And really, in my opinion, this – the scary thing – is a lot of why all of these stupid things happen – to protect the common belief that God exists and if we do not follow his words in that book, we will go to hell, and also, those who believe in that god are prone to using that god like a junkyard dog – to chase after people. Once it is that the fear is gone, so is the control…
Can’t have that now, can we?
Nope
ROX
http://www.themanaoblog.com
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And for the record, I was not only brought up “in the church,” I was the eldest of three pastor’s kids…and that is how I know that what I just wrote there, in some manner, is part of the truth and part of the problem…ok…thnks for letting me use your soapbox , Hel lol
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Yaouch!
That is what needed to be said. These moronic political power-plays amount to “cutting off the nose to spite the face”.
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Perhaps a better argument for the LGBTQ+ crowds:
” Get the STATE out of the business of marriages altogether! ”
” Let the free-market take it from there. ”
Point being, WHY should we continue to rely upon the words from the STATE to base the legitimacy of marriage on??? All the STATE does is profit from it in so many ways, while relegating your “marriage” to the whims if the STATE.
Bring back “Common-Law Marriages”, and the rest shall take care of itself.
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Rev. Dragon’ Eye:
THANK YOU !
If it is to be equal, then my opinion is that why not take it back to the days of Handfasting, when it was that when a union’s purpose was fulfilled, there was no talk of custodial rights, no talk of splitting the property one way or another. The two parties could just part and that was that, and there, according to what I have been told that is truth at least about Ancient Hawai’ians and MANY indigenous cultures, is that when it was over, that was that.
The reason that a marriage license and certificate exist, in case anyone would like to know what is one really ridiculous argument that is actually FACT, is over property. This is the truth. My thought is that there is no reason why any government agencies NEED marriages on paper. I am, at this time, trying hard to get OUT of my “paper” – due to all of the abuse that I suffered and that this person STILL heaps upon me…does the state give a damn about that? Hell no. The only thing the state needs is for me to file (I need the money first….the best advice I give to other survivors is to PAY a lawyer- DO NOT GO THE FREE FILE ROUTE…okay…enough for that part of my activism) a divorce so that when it is tax time, they can know who is full of crap in terms of who gets to claim the kids, and who owns more of this or that, so they can properly tax the right party. I would not know this if I did not ask a question.
I love the ceremonial part of marriage, and I love the beauty that is the ritual of the bride walking up the aisle one last time as a single entity, and back down the aisle as a partner to another human, but there is the part that no one thinks about, and is the part that you have stated quite eloquently – there needs to be common law as recognized, period. Indeed – why is it that that which Spirit has brought together as one be anywhere at ALL the business of the state?
Where the hell is it again that marriage is only about documentation instead of about partnership? That is why there is so much of this nuttiness happening now about the LGBT community – if they are good enough to pay taxes like a straight, then why are they not being recognized as also good enough to be with the one person who they love enough to want to be with til the day they die?
When we remove the “holy” aspect from it, what we have left over is the human and primal aspect of it, and that is the part that these politicians who are also working, in my opinion, “for the church.” My opinion is also that “the church,” while it tells the world that it is a bastion of love and light, is really just another means by which political people can get to the masses…by having their big abusive scary man-god demand, through the mouths of mere mortals in three thousand dollar suits who hold the same damned piece of paper that I do called an ordination certificate, that all humans have to love as “his word” says …or else we all get to go to hell…
Really?
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If marriage (or any such Sacred Union) were to be viewed as more about the relationship (and respect to and from BOTH sides), and NOT about property and “things”, there would be no need for “divorce” and such. We have lost much in the nature of life-unions. The strength of a relationship depends on the two sides being able to peacefully resolve differences, and renew their commitment to the relationship itself. It is a crying shame that the STATE has so successfully brainwashed the masses into further minimizing the importance of the intangible, but powerful, expression of love and devotion to it, as the main reason for a relationship based on the actual sharing of life’s experiences, together.
The whole institution of “marriage” has been so corrupted and commercialized by the STATE, with much help from the “state-approved church”!
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Precisely. This is where folks like us have the chance to remind folks of this one thing
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>;~))====
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The group that is in currently in front of the Supreme Court wants you to believe that it’s “just” about marriage equility for gays
When the majority of gays don’t marry
That right there doesn’t add up
That’s because and don’t lose sight by their words has to do with much more
It has already been asked during those proceedings whether this matter will affect religious beliefs and religious rights
Answer…by the attorney for gay marriage equality
Yes
I’m going to tell you a true story that happened to me last summer
I write this due to one key word “equility”
We were walking along the boardwalk last summer on a hot sunny afternoon
Walking arm in arm man and woman
We decided to go have a cocktail cool down with some AC and relax
The first place we saw we decided to go into
It was a gay restaurant and bar
That made no difference to us
We walked up to the door arm in arm
This guy working the front door refused to let us in
We are not kids
Dressed well
And were not drinking anywhere prior
When we asked why
We were told once again to leave
It became obvious that we were not welcomed in because we were heterosexual
I did not call the cops
I did not bring that gay establishment into court to sue them
I rather just left and spent my cash elsewhere
I bring this forth because I live in a city that has a large gay population
And through the many years have experienced a great deal of unfairness from the gay community and gay establishments
This has been going on forever
Gays do not like Straights in their establishments and deny them entry and service
So what is the fight really all about?
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Thanks for sharing your story.
Yeah, I’ve heard of stuff like that before, though most of the hetrophobia (ha!) I’ve heard of has been online. “Die Cis Scum” is supposedly not a supremacist, hateful cry but it gets kinda hard to believe that when you actually read the stuff they write. I’ve heard similar about the GLBT community, with different parts being the most misogynistic or misandric people you will ever meet. It does raise a lot of questions about “equality.”
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It is not unusual for minorities to want places where they feel safe and don’t have to worry what others might think. After all they live with a good deal of other people
that do to understand them or care about them in fact may actively harass them.
How is that different from say Heathens wanting to be around other Heathen or Wiccans around other Wiccans or Pagans, Druids, or anyone else. As for some not liking straight people, how is that different from Heathens, Pagans and Wiccans who don’t like Christians for much the same reason that they have had bad experiences with them. Look at the amount of Christian bashing.
.
Is it unfair, yes that is true because they have fallen was into the same trap of stereotyping. It takes a while to met enough different people to out grow those sterotypes and it is early impossible for people who have been badly hurt. I am sad that you did not understand that. Not all gays going to treat you that way, any more than all Christians are going treat you badly, though some may.
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I am a minority woman in a man’s world, so I totally get it, on either side.
This is what’s called the flip side of the coin. Now, I am not saying that those gays should have treated you the way that they did, but, we cannot forget, too, that like minorities, they have had to also deal with the majority of the straight population treating them in the manner that you, Hocuspocus13, were treated.
Do I think it is right or fair? Hell no I don’t, but, I get it. Again, either way, I get it. I get it when speaking in terms of how I have been treated, as much as I get it when we are talking about watching them have to deal with what you went through.
It boils down to (seriously) asking them what the problem is. I have encountered hostile homos (it totally was said to me like that by a gay guy in those words, as well as “homo hater”…hey…gotta laugh at some of these things) What else it boils down to is understanding their fight. Where it is that folks like us do not judge, we have to remember the mirror. Where is it that we all, both as a group and as singular beings, due to our practices and beliefs, have become hated by people who didn’t get it?Speaking from my side of things, and having had parents who were both and are both very very “saved” as born again Christians, I have had the microcosm that is the macrocosm. It is nothing for me to tell my father, a retired Christian minister, not that he was essentially “wrong” when he spoke to h is congregation about other beliefs, but that his opinion did not need to be the guiding force behind it all. I explained to him that what he was teaching and what he was living and what was expected that others live, that it was all going to be different and that he might not understand my ways, but that we all have the same goal in mind – a less chaotic world brought about by a common understanding that we are all different.
Did that work? Hell no it didn’t, with my point being that, we understand the gays, and women in particular, because as females in this country we are also ‘minorities,’ because that is h ow society has rolled for so long that it doesn’t want change. It also doesn’t want its comfort messed with at all, and if gays are allowed to be equal, there is no fight for which to label “the good fight.”
What these people don’t get is that they are fighting the ‘good fight’ about and against the only true good in the world, which is Love.
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