Tags
These were in the comments, but it’s just gonna be easier to make them a post.
This is so interesting. So, there’s this crazy dude who says he *used to be* a troll and thinks global warming is caused by Thor, and I tell him his gods are bunk. And then some other people who worship Germanic deities get upset. Why do all people who call their gods by the same names assume they are worshipping the same gods? I don’t think people who do terrible things in the name of Jesus are worshipping the same god as Mother Teresa. And the same goes for Pagan and Polytheists, too. Hey Polytheists! Be careful whose boat you climb into.
You know, I don’t think we’re supposed to call people crazy anymore. Also, nice to see that belief in Gods is classified as a mental illness by Halstead (or judging by how much damage control he’s been trying to do in the comments of my blog, my personal belief in Gods is a sign of my mental illness…but everyone else should be okay, because my gods are different from everyone else’s Gods.). You’re trying really hard with all the ad hominems, but that generally means you’re losing, not winning.
As for why everyone would assume that worshiping gods by the same names means we’re all worshiping the same gods, I mean, that’s crazy, right? That’s like saying just because the President of my country is named Obama, and other people in the same general country have a president named Obama, doesn’t mean it’s the same President Obama at all right? That’s just stupid talk. Clearly. I mean, why would a set of people, following a set of religions with set pantheons, ever assume that they were talking about the same gods? Crazy.
Also, Halstead, global warming would be caused by Sol, Goddess of the Sun, and Freyr, God of Summer. Thor is the Storm God. For a guy all about climate change and the environment, you seem to have problems differentiating different aspects of meteorology. But hey, I’m the crazy one who doesn’t know anything.
But we’re not here to talk about the wonders of climate change, we’re here to talk about how I’m wrong!
I can’t believe I’m bothering to engage someone who believes global warming si caused by Thor, but here goes …
1. Turning to the dictionary to define “Paganism” is just stupid, since most dictionaries do not even attempt to take into account the contemporary Pagan movement.
Because using dictionaries are stupid. They no speak English good like Halstead, they keep bad meanings that make Halstead wrong when Halstead try to win arguments online.
Let us all take a moment to breath in the fact that using dictionaries is stupid and is an example of me being in the wrong. Now breath out. Now please do not die laughing, we’ve got several more points to go here.
2. If Paganism is synonymous with polytheism, as you claim, then how do you account for Pagan animists or Pagan pantheists? Are they not “real” Pagans in your mind either? And sorry, no, not all animists see themselves as polytheists.
On no, those are real pagans. But if you look at the concepts of animists or pantheists…they’ve a lot more in common metaphysically with polytheism than they do anything else like atheism. Both believe in spiritual beings, generally a multiplicity of them, and usually with each spirit having an individual nature. And sure, not all animists may see themselves as polytheists, but then, why should they? They can believe what they want.
3. And not all Pagans believe in the “supernatural” as you say. In fact, most Pagans that I have spoken to have no use for the term “supernatural” and believe that the gods and spirits are “natural”.
Ironically, I don’t believe in the “supernatural” either. I consider the Gods, spirits, and so forth to be a completely natural part of existence. Just bunch of really big, really powerful parts.
4. Atheist Pagans are not trying to kick theistic Pagans out from under the Pagan umbrella. You’ve got it backwards. It’s (some) theistic Pagans who are trying to kick atheist Pagans out. I have yet to see an atheist Pagan say that theists are not “real” Pagans, but I see it all the time from theistic Pagans toward atheists. This very post is Exhibit A.
Yeah, you keep saying that. But every time you write an article, or I see an article, it’s an Atheist punting out Theists. Frankly, I haven’t read a single post yet by any theist going after atheists that didn’t start with the atheist attacking the theist first. I can only go by my own eyes, because you’ve twisted enough crap in your articles to be completely unbelievable for me.
5. I’ve never included “Ultimate” as one of the three centers of Paganism. Get your facts straight. It’s always been deity, (deep) self, and earth/nature.
No, you didn’t, but you did quote the three centers from Beckett and others, who did say Ultimate. And then you changed it to earth/nature. To fit your politics and position in the global debate. Which is why I have called you on that repeatedly.
6. The polytheists I know look down their noses at duo-theistic Wiccans. They see duo-theism as half way to monotheism. Just visit polytheist.com to see that they exclude duo-theism from polytheism. http://polytheist.com/frequently-asked-questions/
Yes, some polytheists look down on duo-theists. Duo theists look down on montheists, monotheists look down on atheists, and atheists look down on everyone. Also, if you’re assuming that polytheist.com naturally is the bible of polytheist beliefs and there’s no variation, then you’re an idiot. Also, people are generally ass hats who think their way is best. You and I are pretty good examples of this, except I don’t take shit nearly as personally as you seem to.
Also, maybe you should hang out with better people, Halstead.
7. I’m not saying that Polytheists aren’t Pagans. I’m saying that there are Polytheists who themselves say there aren’t Pagan (anymore). I’m not defining anyone in or out of the Pagan umbrella, just recognizing that some people are walking out on their own.
No, that is exactly what you said. “Non-Pagan Capital P Polytheists.” You’ve implied it at the least several other times, Halstead. Everyone has read it in your articles and come away with the same impression. Atheists can be Pagans, but Polytheists are separate from Paganism. Even the polytheists who still call themselves Pagan.
But I will acknowledge that there are people who are polytheistic that are leaving the Pagan umbrella, mostly because instead of a welcoming place where they should belong, they end up finding people like you who call us crazy, demented, possessing of small gods, asking how we can even believe that we have the same gods (despite them having the same names, personalities, deeds, history, lore, etc), and so forth. Because as far as you’re concerned if your name is Halstead, anyone who believes in anything outside of humanity is a nut case.
Thanks to others like True Pagan Warrior, I am finding out about events from several years ago (when personal events meant I was not as active in the pagan blogs as I had been. Apparently sometime spring in 2013 there was a “silencing” where a bunch of polytheist blogs went mute. I recognized some of the names, so I will try to look into those when I can get the chance and see what was happening.
Frankly, I’m all for “taking back Paganism” but then I’ve got more of a taste for taking the piss out of people who are assholes than most people. Most people find it easier to walk way rather than to fight bigoted, close-minded people who insist there is something wrong with them because they don’t believe the same as the bigot. So I can hardly blame them for splitting.
So there we have it people, I’m a crazy dude who believes Thor causes climate change and those are 7 points where I am factually wrong!
Hela Bless
Son of Hel 
“And then some other people who worship Germanic deities get upset. Why do all people who call their gods by the same names assume they are worshipping the same gods? I don’t think people who do terrible things in the name of Jesus are worshipping the same god as Mother Teresa. And the same goes for Pagan and Polytheists, too. Hey Polytheists! Be careful whose boat you climb into.”
First of all, he separates Pagans and Polytheists right in a fucking sentence right there!
Secondly, he had asked this question of Galina, and one of the things she said in reply was it was “a question only an atheist or someone who has not dealt with the Gods would ask” which is very accurate.
The difference in the way people act upon their beliefs has really almost nothing to do with the Gods Themselves, but the person committing those actions (“people who do terrible things in the name of Jesus”). But his view point is really in thinking that They are all in our heads so how can be the same Being. Our relationships with Them are different but They are not different from person to person. Stupidity.
As always, enjoy your post.
LikeLiked by 1 person
>”he separates Pagans and Polytheists right in a fucking sentence right there!”
Because there’s Polytheists are not Pagan, and Pagans who are not Polytheists, you dolt! They are two separate, but overlapping circles.
>”Our relationships with Them are different but They are not different from person to person.”
I don’t think you can know that. Does the Westboro Baptist church worship the same god as Mother Teresa did? I don’t think so.
LikeLike
“I don’t think you can know that. Does the Westboro Baptist church worship the same god as Mother Teresa did? I don’t think so.”
You may not think so, but what matters really is not our personal opinion, but what they believe. They believe they are worshiping the same God as Mother Teresa.
LikeLike
This was the very first article that used the three centers approach to defining Paganism. It was from May 2012. You can see for yourself what the three centers are (there’s even a graphic): earth, Self, deity. http://www.patheos.com/blogs/allergicpagan/2012/05/23/the-three-or-more-centers-of-paganism/
John Beckett, as he will tell you himself, borrowed the model from me.
LikeLike
“Non-Pagan Capital P Polytheists.”
Yes I used those words. Because there are people who call themselves Polytheists who do not want to be called Pagan. Why can’t you get that through your head? As TPWard said in the comments to your earlier post: it is “a fact that a fair number of polytheists have been rejecting the label “Pagan” for at least a couple of years now …”
I’m not saying that all polytheists are not Pagan. I’m saying some want to be Pagan, and some don’t.
Thank you for finally acknowledging that there are “people who are polytheistic that are leaving the Pagan umbrella.” But they are leaving not because of me or because of atheist Pagans, but because they don’t relate to the Wiccanate Neo-Paganism which has become the lingua franca at public pan-Pagan gathering. And I don’t blame them. If you had any sense of what has been going on for the last several years, you would know that atheist Paganism wasn’t even on people’s radar when this polytheist exodus started.
LikeLike
Yeah, I personally don’t care what folks call me, as long as you don’t call me late to dinner. XD
LikeLike
Rejecting the label is not the same as rejecting the community. The label used (as in Pagan being understood as Wiccanate Neo-Paganism which has become the lingua franca at public pan-Pagan gathering) doesn’t mean that, suddenly, polytheists are outside of the pagan community. I see here that it’s more of a question about being very specific in describing one’s beliefs (clarifying, I would say), and much less about “do they really belong into the community?” And it may sound strange, but I think that’s the best way I can word it.
Yes: there may be polytheists who do not want to associate with the pagan label. But what do you do about the polytheists who *do* consider themselves pagan and who see, truly, no distinction other than just the label of “polytheist?” And it’s one thing to not identify with the label, and another entirely to have a theology/philosophy/structured worldview that cannot be shared in paganism (for example, a monotheist viewpoint). There’s a nuance here.
Also, I don’t quite understand why people who choose not to associate with the “pagan” label are so vehemently marginalized. So a person who doesn’t get into the “Wiccanite Neo-Paganism” feel just isn’t part of the community anymore? (And I mean all persons, I’m not specifically referring to a particular branch of practice; this applies to all kinds of pagans, including atheist pagans). Again, I do have a lot of questions about how much the labels (and the identity) affect being considered part of the community, to you. Because the label says one thing, but the definition says another.
LikeLike
>”Rejecting the label is not the same as rejecting the community.”
I didn’t say it was. But there are plenty of polytheists rejecting the community too. Others don’t.
>”“do they really belong into the community?”
For the record, I’m not saying who does and who doesn’t belong in the Pagan community. Polytheists can decide for themselves on a case by case basis. But when you define Paganism as polytheism, then it’s you (not me) that is excluding others from Paganism — including pantheists, animists, and non-theists.
>”what do you do about the polytheists who *do* consider themselves pagan and who see, truly, no distinction other than just the label of “polytheist?”
If you mean, what do I about polytheists who want to be part of the Pagan community, then I do nothing; they’re welcome. If you are asking what do I do about people who equate Paganism with polytheism, then I try to educate them that we non-theist Pagans are here and we’re not going anywhere.
>”… another entirely to have a theology/philosophy/structured worldview that cannot be shared in paganism (for example, a monotheist viewpoint).”
See, that’s where polytheists keep getting in trouble — thinking that there is a belief which excludes someone from the Pagan community. This is imposing an orthodoxy on Paganism that has never been present before. We’ve always said that what matters is orthopraxy, not orthodoxy. And for the record, there are monotheistic Pagans who worship the Goddess.
>”So a person who doesn’t get into the “Wiccanite Neo-Paganism” feel just isn’t part of the community anymore?”
That’s up to them. I’m just saying that there are some people who don’t want to be a part of the community any more. For godssake, I’m not trying to define anyone in or out of Paganism. That’s what Lucius is doing when he says atheist Pagans aren’t Pagan. How can you have it so completely backwards?!
LikeLike
Despite what you’re trying to say, this is all boils to a term a former derogatory term being argued over. It’s a word, a label, nothing more. Once we become labels, it’s just another cliche. If someone wants to “boot” me out of a community that I never joined formally (I simply started researching and worshiping the Gods one day, I never joined any group or society nor do I pay any dues) then so be it. It doesn’t affect my relationship with the Gods at all. However, this bickering makes a mockery of paganism and polytheism. We become no better than the sectarian nonsense we see in the Mideast, albeit to a not so drastic interaction, and the schisms in Christianity. Religion no longer becomes sacred when one group believes they know better than the other.
LikeLike
So much craziness over a label that originated as a term by Christian Romans that is much akin to todays “redneck” and “hick” epithets.
LikeLike
I’m not going to lie. I think this post made me develop a crush on you. I don’t engage with him because I’m not able to maintain a life-sustaining blood pressure while doing so. I choose to just educate others and hope for the best. Keep fighting, my Friend, keep fighting.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Thank you, your words mean a great deal to me, as does your kindness. I will try to do so, with the blessings of the Gods and Goddesses, and people like you. 🙂
LikeLiked by 1 person
Oh man, have you gotten under his skin. Nothing demonstrates insecurity like Halstead’s behavior here and elsewhere in reaction to your posts. Some people just can’t stand the fact that other people disagree with them. It raises the doubt in their mind that maybe, just maybe, they’re wrong, and they can’t handle that.
LikeLiked by 1 person
Point 3 in this post, about the Gods being “natural”, if this were indeed fact then science would be able to find the Gods easily putting to rest the debate on the existence of the Gods forever. However, since science can’t find the Gods they are therefore beyond the natural realm of existence, since science deals specifically with the natural and only the natural. So until science can develop the tools necessary to find the Gods, then they are therefore supernatural.
LikeLike
Pingback: Halstead and the Three Pillars: This Changes Everything | Son of Hel