These were in the comments, but it’s just gonna be easier to make them a post.
This is so interesting. So, there’s this crazy dude who says he *used to be* a troll and thinks global warming is caused by Thor, and I tell him his gods are bunk. And then some other people who worship Germanic deities get upset. Why do all people who call their gods by the same names assume they are worshipping the same gods? I don’t think people who do terrible things in the name of Jesus are worshipping the same god as Mother Teresa. And the same goes for Pagan and Polytheists, too. Hey Polytheists! Be careful whose boat you climb into.
You know, I don’t think we’re supposed to call people crazy anymore. Also, nice to see that belief in Gods is classified as a mental illness by Halstead (or judging by how much damage control he’s been trying to do in the comments of my blog, my personal belief in Gods is a sign of my mental illness…but everyone else should be okay, because my gods are different from everyone else’s Gods.). You’re trying really hard with all the ad hominems, but that generally means you’re losing, not winning.
As for why everyone would assume that worshiping gods by the same names means we’re all worshiping the same gods, I mean, that’s crazy, right? That’s like saying just because the President of my country is named Obama, and other people in the same general country have a president named Obama, doesn’t mean it’s the same President Obama at all right? That’s just stupid talk. Clearly. I mean, why would a set of people, following a set of religions with set pantheons, ever assume that they were talking about the same gods? Crazy.
Also, Halstead, global warming would be caused by Sol, Goddess of the Sun, and Freyr, God of Summer. Thor is the Storm God. For a guy all about climate change and the environment, you seem to have problems differentiating different aspects of meteorology. But hey, I’m the crazy one who doesn’t know anything.
I can’t believe I’m bothering to engage someone who believes global warming si caused by Thor, but here goes …
1. Turning to the dictionary to define “Paganism” is just stupid, since most dictionaries do not even attempt to take into account the contemporary Pagan movement.
Because using dictionaries are stupid. They no speak English good like Halstead, they keep bad meanings that make Halstead wrong when Halstead try to win arguments online.
Let us all take a moment to breath in the fact that using dictionaries is stupid and is an example of me being in the wrong. Now breath out. Now please do not die laughing, we’ve got several more points to go here.
2. If Paganism is synonymous with polytheism, as you claim, then how do you account for Pagan animists or Pagan pantheists? Are they not “real” Pagans in your mind either? And sorry, no, not all animists see themselves as polytheists.
On no, those are real pagans. But if you look at the concepts of animists or pantheists…they’ve a lot more in common metaphysically with polytheism than they do anything else like atheism. Both believe in spiritual beings, generally a multiplicity of them, and usually with each spirit having an individual nature. And sure, not all animists may see themselves as polytheists, but then, why should they? They can believe what they want.
3. And not all Pagans believe in the “supernatural” as you say. In fact, most Pagans that I have spoken to have no use for the term “supernatural” and believe that the gods and spirits are “natural”.
Ironically, I don’t believe in the “supernatural” either. I consider the Gods, spirits, and so forth to be a completely natural part of existence. Just bunch of really big, really powerful parts.
4. Atheist Pagans are not trying to kick theistic Pagans out from under the Pagan umbrella. You’ve got it backwards. It’s (some) theistic Pagans who are trying to kick atheist Pagans out. I have yet to see an atheist Pagan say that theists are not “real” Pagans, but I see it all the time from theistic Pagans toward atheists. This very post is Exhibit A.
Yeah, you keep saying that. But every time you write an article, or I see an article, it’s an Atheist punting out Theists. Frankly, I haven’t read a single post yet by any theist going after atheists that didn’t start with the atheist attacking the theist first. I can only go by my own eyes, because you’ve twisted enough crap in your articles to be completely unbelievable for me.
5. I’ve never included “Ultimate” as one of the three centers of Paganism. Get your facts straight. It’s always been deity, (deep) self, and earth/nature.
No, you didn’t, but you did quote the three centers from Beckett and others, who did say Ultimate. And then you changed it to earth/nature. To fit your politics and position in the global debate. Which is why I have called you on that repeatedly.
6. The polytheists I know look down their noses at duo-theistic Wiccans. They see duo-theism as half way to monotheism. Just visit polytheist.com to see that they exclude duo-theism from polytheism. http://polytheist.com/frequently-asked-questions/
Yes, some polytheists look down on duo-theists. Duo theists look down on montheists, monotheists look down on atheists, and atheists look down on everyone. Also, if you’re assuming that polytheist.com naturally is the bible of polytheist beliefs and there’s no variation, then you’re an idiot. Also, people are generally ass hats who think their way is best. You and I are pretty good examples of this, except I don’t take shit nearly as personally as you seem to.
Also, maybe you should hang out with better people, Halstead.
7. I’m not saying that Polytheists aren’t Pagans. I’m saying that there are Polytheists who themselves say there aren’t Pagan (anymore). I’m not defining anyone in or out of the Pagan umbrella, just recognizing that some people are walking out on their own.
No, that is exactly what you said. “Non-Pagan Capital P Polytheists.” You’ve implied it at the least several other times, Halstead. Everyone has read it in your articles and come away with the same impression. Atheists can be Pagans, but Polytheists are separate from Paganism. Even the polytheists who still call themselves Pagan.
But I will acknowledge that there are people who are polytheistic that are leaving the Pagan umbrella, mostly because instead of a welcoming place where they should belong, they end up finding people like you who call us crazy, demented, possessing of small gods, asking how we can even believe that we have the same gods (despite them having the same names, personalities, deeds, history, lore, etc), and so forth. Because as far as you’re concerned if your name is Halstead, anyone who believes in anything outside of humanity is a nut case.
Thanks to others like True Pagan Warrior, I am finding out about events from several years ago (when personal events meant I was not as active in the pagan blogs as I had been. Apparently sometime spring in 2013 there was a “silencing” where a bunch of polytheist blogs went mute. I recognized some of the names, so I will try to look into those when I can get the chance and see what was happening.
Frankly, I’m all for “taking back Paganism” but then I’ve got more of a taste for taking the piss out of people who are assholes than most people. Most people find it easier to walk way rather than to fight bigoted, close-minded people who insist there is something wrong with them because they don’t believe the same as the bigot. So I can hardly blame them for splitting.
So there we have it people, I’m a crazy dude who believes Thor causes climate change and those are 7 points where I am factually wrong!