Dr. Bones, Gods & Radicals, Heathen, law, Pagan, patriotism, polytheism, propaganda, state
Yo Dog, we heard that you hate propaganda and patriotism. so we put some propaganda in your anti-propaganda so you can patriot while you anti-patriot! We’re carrying on with part 2 of Dr. Bones’ Patriotism is a Fraud and You Have Been Duped
Because there’s no Bones about it, yo!
Patriotism is the Lies the State Gets You to Tell Yourself
The thing is whenever patriotism is discussed it’s never quite truly defined. Patriotism is not simply a love for one’s country, it is not just a feeling of solidarity. When 9/11 happened were you more shocked at the flagrant loss of human life or the fact that such a thing happened “to the United States?” If you answered the former congratulations! You’re a feeling human being; if you answered the latter I must ask why.
What if I answered both?
Also, nice way to imply that the “patriot” group is no a feeling human being.
Btw, is the way that patriotism is never truly defined supposed to work against it? Because I find that “Marxism” is never truly defined by its proponents either. I mean, just so we’re holding things to the same standard here. Because if being a mutable thing that adapts to changing situations is bad…
There is this weird thing about States: they remind me of ghosts. The restless Dead very rarely act in the open, preferring subtlety, but one of the things any good Necromancer can tell you is that the first trick they always pull is to whisper into your head. Anyone that’s shared living quarters with a negative entity can affirm this. You’ll be there minding your own business when a strange thought seems to shoot through your head like an arrow that you should kill yourself, or better yet, kill someone else. You know YOU didn’t think it, and the thought itself carries this slimy, alien feel to it, but it rings in your head all the same.
Soooo, Bones has complained about State Propaganda being shoved down your throat…only to then liken it to ghost that whispers in your ear…
See, there’s no consistency to the argument here. He wants to complain that “patriotism” is never “clearly defined” but then goes on to change the definition and function of his state propaganda. Meaning he won’t clearly define it either, so it can always be redefined as the “bad thing” he wants it to be.
Also, if the State is like a Ghost, then how come we can see the workings of the state and watch as it functions like a living being? I hate to say this, but his metaphors are getting all mixed up and it’s seriously hurting the point he’s trying to make.
This is much the effect of Patriotism: it is an intangible spirit that tries to get you to do things.
Oh, like Marxism does.
What often passes for Patriotism is often simply human rivalry, the love of a sports team simply transferred to a national level. We’ll root and cheer for the ole’ Red, White and Blue at a soccer match just as easily as we will if we’re competing with Russia to get into space.
Yes…because that’s how tribalism works. It binds people together in both the large and small competitions. Much the same way that your Marxist tribalism has apparently allowed you, Chris, Rhyd, and everyone else over at Gods & Radicals to unify together in both the large and small competitions to the point where none of you spoke out about Chris’s blatant lies regarding what I said (and Rhyd signing off on such blatant falsehood going live on their site despite a very quick and easy check of the facts).
And yet Bones claims he cannot understand Patriotism…
The difference is the American soccer team doesn’t take the field with machine guns and start drone bombing the sidelines, actively funding armed fundamentalists to begin killing fans of the opposing team.
Which…might actually make me want to watch soccer. Or football. Or really any other spectator sport….
Also, this same cannot be said for European and South American football teams. Those guys get super violent about their games.
Different forms of Patriotism? Yes. But very related. Tolstoy notes:
“It is generally said that the real, good patriotism consists in desiring for one’s own people or State such real benefits as do not infringe the well-being of other nations
Talking recently to an Englishman about the present war, I said to him that the real cause of the war was not avarice, as people generally say, but patriotism, as is evident from the temper of the whole of English society. The Englishman did not agree with me, and said that even were the case so, it resulted from the fact that the patriotism at present inspiring Englishmen is a bad patriotism; but that good patriotism, such as he was imbued with, would cause Englishmen, his compatriots, to act well.”
Yeah, fair enough. Patriotism can be good or bad, just like everything else. Sometimes one wishes the good of ones state that does not come at the cost of others. Sometimes, however, the good of one’s state does come at the cost of other states either due to the actions of those other states, your state, both states, or some other force which drives forth the conflict between nations.
Of course, I doubt Bones can see such subtleties.
The problem is the “good patriotism” leads just as easily to the “bad” kind because we never want anybody else to be patriotic. Would the American have the Russian put his people or country above all others? Why isn’t the patriotism held by an Iraqi insurgent viewed as sacredly as our long dead revolutionaries?
Who says it isn’t?
Honestly, I do wish the Russian to put his country above all others. That is his duty. Just as it is my duty to put my country above all others. And I have no problem with the members of ISIS putting their country’s needs above all others, because that is their duty.
This is the “Good Patriotism” then, we’ll say.
However, when the ISIS fighter’s desire to put his country above mine appears in my country and harms its people, then I must embrace putting my nation above his and insist that he with draw from my lands, and perhaps even enforce this insistence all the way to taking over his lands should he refuse to keep striking at mine.
I would regard this, too, as “good patriotism.” Though it has led to conflict and violence, at least each party has upheld their duty.
Now, as for why we might hold our long dead revolutionaries as more sacred than the Iraqi insurgents who formed ISIS…that might have something to do with the massive sex slavery and intolerance for different religions (not to mention their genocide of gay people) they practice, vs our revolutionaries who insisted on liberty and freedom for everyone.
Patriotism operates like a mental short circuit, allowing one group a ready made list of excuses and ego-enhancement while diminishing the same in other countries. Tolstoy agrees adding “So that not the imaginary but the real patriotism, which we all know, by which most people to-day are swayed and from which humanity suffers so severely, is not the wish for spiritual benefits for one’s own people (it is impossible to desire spiritual benefits for one’s own people only), but is a very definite feeling of preference for one’s own people or State above all other peoples and States, and a consequent wish to get for that people or State the greatest advantages and power that can be got- things which are obtainable only at the expense of the advantages and power of other peoples or States.”
Oh, you mean like you G&R guys did in your Marxist Patriotism with that “Confronting the New Right” article?
You know, I do so love it when my opponents give me examples of “Bad actions” with their own actions.
Emma Goldman was even more scathing in her contempt for Patriotism:
“Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot consider themselves nobler, better, grander, more intelligent than those living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others. The inhabitants of the other spots reason in like manner, of course, with the result that from early infancy the mind of the child is provided with blood-curdling stories about the Germans, the French, the Italians, Russians, etc. When the child has reached manhood he is thoroughly saturated with the belief that he is chosen by the Lord himself to defend his country against the attack or invasion of any foreigner…
You mean like how Marxist children are taught the evils of the Capitalist, the State, and the Non-Marxist? And how they must be resisted at every turn to create a radically egalitarian Marxist society for the good of all?
I swear, the lack of self awareness is mind boggling.
We Americans claim to be a peace-loving people. We hate bloodshed; we are opposed to violence. Yet we go into spasms of joy over the possibility of projecting dynamite bombs from flying machines upon helpless citizens. We are ready to hang, electrocute, or lynch anyone, who, from economic necessity, will risk his own life in the attempt upon that of some industrial magnate. Yet our hearts swell with pride at the thought that America is becoming the most powerful nation on earth, and that she will eventually plant her iron foot on the necks of all other nations.”
“We are ready to hang, electrocute, or lynch anyone, who, from economic necessity, will risk his own life in the attempt upon that of some industrial magnate.”
Just so we’re all clear, she’s complaining about how we will execute someone for attempting to murder another person. Over money. Because that’s a crime.
And sure, a lot of Americans do like the idea of our nation being the strongest in the world and planting our “iron foot” upon the necks of other nations. Because with that iron foot we would enforce our cultural norms upon them.
- Like allowing women to work, vote, and avoid having their genitals mutilated or being sold as sex slaves.
- Allowing gay people to live openly, find love, possibly get married, and not get tossed off the roofs of buildings or stoned to death.
- Allowing people to own private property, potentially lift themselves up out of poverty, and pursue their dreams as opposed to being butchered for being part of the “wrong tribe” on the end of an ethnic cleanser’s gun
- Allowing people to practice their native religions that have long been suppressed by Muslims, Communists, and other invading groups who desired the total destruction of the conquered people.
Yep…evil, evil patriotism there.
Emma was uncanny in her prediction: the United States, by the CIA’s own admission, has become the largest and most violent terrorist organization on the globe. All for what? Safety? We’re no more safe than 20 years ago. Freedom? We’re certainly less free then we were 50 years ago.
I see Bones doesn’t know the definition of terrorism very well.
Is the USA in possession of the larges military organization in the world? Absolutely. Is all military action terrorism? Not hardly.
Are we less free? Yes, because authoritarians have wormed their way in and gotten power over way too much. Is this in agreement with American principles? No. But the Patriot who desires his nation to be free and safe is typically not the guy supporting this authoritarian over reaches. So to hold the patriot responsible for them is disingenuous at best.
No, the grand American Imperium borne from bloodshed and maintained by the torture and death of millions exists because it must, because we are “exceptional” and thus we are destined to rule. Whatever needs to be done will be to maintain our hegemony, and the act of loving this is what the State needs. This ego-inflation on a national scale is fed by a steady diet of Patriotism and could easily be used to defend any loathsome behavior from purges and gulags to infinite war and genocide.
Soooo the guy who took over his JROTC event in a fit of Soviet Nationalism and still openly embraces the Marxist ideology that has spilled more blood than any other…is complaining about people believing in an ideology that could potentially lead to the spilling of blood.
And it is on a regular basis: remember Madeleine Albright, the woman who called us “the indispensable nation,” also referred to the death of 500,000 Iraqi children as an “acceptable price” to pay for victory.
This logic, that we are “special” and because of this we can do what we like was greedily eaten up by movie-going masses through films like Zero-Dark-Thirty and American Sniper. Torture and murder weren’t simply shown, they were glorified.
I never saw Zero-Dark-Thirty so I can’t speak to that movie. But I did see American Sniper and…there wasn’t a lot of murder by the Americans in that movie. There was murder, sure. And the Americans did kill a lot of people…but those people were typically armed if I recall correctly…which means it wasn’t murder.
Also, I’m not sure that a man who embraces Stalin really gets to complain about Albright…
The sheer fact a company would spend millions of dollars for a 30 second Super Bowl ad should attest to the importance of this battle for the subconscious. What effect do you think 30 minutes can have? How about an entire fucking movie? Patriot propaganda, while different, is as widespread as it’s Capitalist cousin and shares the same goal: to make you believe that it’s manufactured thoughts are your own. This is done primarily through emotional appeals which short circuits critical thinking as I covered before. So has Tolstoy:
And let’s be honest Bones, if you had that kind of money to spend on putting out Marxist propaganda, you would.
We’re literally watching a propaganda maker complaining that the propaganda of the other side is more successful and more evil because its managing to do what he can’t with his own propaganda.
“This occurs because the ruling classes (including not only the actual rulers with their officials, but all the classes who enjoy an exceptionally advantageous position: the capitalists, journalists, and most of the artists and scientists) can retain their position–exceptionally advantageous in comparison with that of the labouring masses–thanks only to Government organization, which rests on patriotism. They have in their hands all the most powerful means of influencing the people, and always sedulously support patriotic feelings in themselves and others, more especially as those feelings which uphold the Government’s power are those that are always best rewarded by that power…
You know, it was arguments like this which allowed the Soviets to engage in gulags and purges. Purges where they murdered state officials, intellectuals, journalists, capitalists, and anyone else the thought was in a position of privilege and power.
So good job Bones, you’re arguing against the evils of Patriotism with…what boils down to Marxist Patriotist arguments.
“The ruling classes have in their hands the army, money, the schools, the churches, and the press. In the schools, they kindle patriotism in the children by means of histories describing their own people as the best of all peoples and always in the right. Among adults they kindle it by spectacles, jubilees, monuments, and by a lying patriotic press. Above all, they inflame patriotism in this way: perpetrating every kind of harshness and injustice against other nations, they provoke in them enmity towards their own people, and then in turn exploit that enmity to embitter their people against the foreigner.”
Patriotism then isn’t a love for one’s country. Patriotism is the state-sanctioned mental violation of entire peoples, all to keep them in service to the Ruling Class.
“You don’t really love your nation, you were mind raped into thinking you did.”
“You don’t really love your husband, he just raped you till you thought you did.”
Congrats Bones, you have officially reached “all penis in vagina sex is rape” levels of totalitarian arguments. Bones, who let us restate has been using Marxist Patriotic arguments in his attempt to denounce patriotism, has just said that all patriotism is nothing more than internalized Stockholm syndrome from massive mind rape and there is no other explanation for why a person would love their nation.
Stop Believing the Bullshit
Is the good of the nation really our good? It’s clearly good for some people: whenever the drums of war sound the poor are gathered around but the rich are free to play. In nearly all branches of government we have a ruling class of the rich for the rich, yet we are strong-armed to believe we’re “all in this together” yet they never seem to send their kids off to fight the wars they cause.
This is really rich given how much money Gods & Radicals is probably making from all the controversy and infighting in the Pagan Community.
Although we can at least say that when it comes to Chris, he is more than willing to send his kids off to the Pagan War…if only because he hides behind them as soon as people start saying mean (but true) things about his bullshit.
What loyalty should you have to these parasites and their “nation?” The same as they’ve given to you: NONE!
Idk, the soldiers die to protect me, the cops patrol to enforce the laws, the government so far has indeed managed to keep all the utilities running and the bombs from falling on my head. To be honest…they’ve kinda held up the end of their bargain pretty well. I can practice my faith as promised, without molestation from them (as promised), I’ve yet to hear of anyone being carted off to the gulags, and we just gave gay people the right to marry (enforcing justice for all).
Sooooo, yeah. I’d say they’ve shown some loyalty to me and the other citizens of this nation who aren’t complete douchbags that wanna overthrow everything.
Sit with me beside the shattered corpse of an old Oak tree that provided shade for the Spaniards when they landed here, now torn down for a Burger King; walk with me amongst the shrinking Everglades who’s water supply is being strangled in the name of Bug Sugar. Our sacred spaces are dying in the name of progress, the very fields of existence we draw upon for power being mutilated for “the greater good,” and we are supposed to fawn over the State responsible for this?
Okay, first off, the state is not responsible for the building of Burger Kings or the activities of Big Sugar. Those are corporations, autonomous things outside of the state. If you do not like their actions, that is all well and good. But their actions are not the actions of the State.
Using Bones’ logic, however, I could claim that the State is responsible for Bones actions of the Actions of G&R, because they “allow” these actions to occur. Following that logic I should resist and over throw the State in order to prevent G&R from taking their actions by seizing that power for myself so I can legislate that G&R cannot engage in their actions and viewpoints.
Yeah, the state which is evil because it rules with an iron boot…is evil because they’re not ruling with an iron boot to ban what Bones feels needs to be banned.
We never see a strip mall torn down for a public park! We never see Northrop-Grumman have to beg for money and protection like our waterways do! I cannot file a petition to divest myself from the police but those who rule can far more easily explain away my right to live if our “boys in blue” so need it!
Really, cause I thought I’d heard of a strip mall being made into a park…
And you can in fact, divest yourself of the police. I believe it’s call renouncing your citizenship. At which point, you will be divested of the police.
Also, if that “right to live” thing is about Black Lives Matter, I’m sorry. But if you attempt to murder someone (including a cop) and the cops kill you…that is not “explaining away your right to live.”
The Nation wants you to sweat and sacrifice(often your very life) yet scoffs at the idea it should do the same. What Occultist in their right mind would maintain a relationship such a spirit?
Where does it scoff at this?
Either Bones has no idea what the job of the State is (highly likely at this point), or he is literally blind to all the things the “State” does for its people (also highly likely at this point).
Look, the state is supposed to give us a couple of things. Laws (and their enforcement), infrastructure (government offices to over see the creation and enforcement of laws, as well as public works like utilities, roads, bridges, etc), and defense (militarizes and the ability to wage war). Occasionally, the state will also take upon itself the duties to aid citizens of wanting nature (social programs, welfare, free schooling, etc).
Now, do these things exist in our State? Yes they do. Does this mean the State is maintaining our relationship with it, and giving back to us? Yes it does.
But apparently Bones is the kind of person who thinks there’s always going to be roads, electricity, running water, and law enforcement (which is apparently evil) and these things will naturally exist without any State being there, so the State does nothing but take.
As magicians and Workers of Spirit we need to treat the invisible concepts of “State” and “Patriotism” just the same as we would any other entity that would seek to control our thoughts. You would not willingly jump off a cliff because some Wood Sprite claims it opens another dimension, yet you might pridefully watch our children sign up to die in a desert for some intangible “freedom.” We would not whitewash German history because one of our Ancestors fought for the Kaiser in WW1, yet how many here will apply the same vigorous criticism to American troops today? Why is it that we can communicate across dimensions yet would swear undying loyalty and subservience not to a land or country(for we’ve seen how they treat the land and we KNOW they don’t find it holy) but to an impalpable political “system” that shares none of our values yet demands our serfdom?
I’ve actually known some people who were spirit workers that would jump off a cliff if a wood sprite claimed just that.
Also…using WWI there is a bad example if you’re trying to critique US troops in present day. The Germans only fought in WWI because they’d allied themselves with the Austrian empire. They were there fighting and dying to keep their oath. And look what it got them. But they did it anyways, with honor and integrity to the point where they were the only nation on their side to survive the war, really. So saying our soldiers are bad because they uphold their oaths, even unto death, in war is…what I would consider a complement.
Also, this “impalpable” political system is a system of representation. It is a Republic, where in all citizens may voice their desires via a vote. A Republic that stands for freedom of belief and speech, freedom of action, the ability to pursue your own happiness, and the maximum amount of justice possible for all citizens.
If that is a system which shares no values with your own…that means that you’re standing for a system which is against representation of its peoples in their own government, you are against freedom of belief, speech, and action, you’re more than willing to limit the ability of your citizenry to pursue their own happiness, and you’re willing to sacrifice justice for some so that others can have it.
And you want me and everyone else in the world to sign up with your system of beliefs because our present one is an evil lie enforced by mind-raping propaganda?
How many mores times must we as a community swallow “the noble lie?” How many more must be murdered in the streets until we realize the State would rather see us dead than disobedient? How polluted must our air become before we realize that the same people we keep voting for have the money to buy the purified stuff and don’t intend to give it up?
“How many more must be murdered in the streets until we realize the State would rather see us dead than disobedient?”
I don’t know, how many more of you are going to die for engaging in criminal behavior rather than obeying the law?
Look, if you want to go out rioting and looting and destroying stuff, you can. But when someone shoots you and kills you for rioting and looting and destroying stuff, you do not get to claim that you’re the good guy and that they are the bad guys because they stopped you.
“I’mma be a terrorist!” (kid, we shoot terrorists because they kill people) “You oppressive bastards!!!!!!!”
Look, yes, the State would very much like people to obey the laws. I would very much like people to obey the laws. I would very much like to live in a place where people do not go around murdering, raping, killing, rioting, looting, and burning people and places because they don’t like them or feel entitled to do so. And I am perfectly happy with cops killing people who engage in those actions because those actions hurt innocent people.
And maybe that’s the “Great lie” of the state, that we deserve to be safe in our homes and cities, but fuck it, I will gladly buy into that great lie.
When will the witches and wizards realize they have been put under a spell of compulsion and begin to cast some of their own?
Because fighting mind control by using mind control on people is the heart and soul of ethical magic.
Oh, by the way, I’ve had some bad experiences with witches and wizard using compulsion spells on people. It’s a bit of a sore subject for me. I find out you guys are starting to do that and I will come out of my temple and you will learn again why Witches Fear Priests.
You don’t get to mind whammy and mind rape people and then beg mercy from the Fists of Gods.
It’s time for the magically inclined to wake up and realize they’ve been hexed, that a malignant and poisonous little troll that loves to wave flags has been implanted in our skulls. In the media, in conversation, this troll whispers excuses for evil just as easily as it spreads lies to further it’s own agenda, an agenda it values much higher than our lives and dreams. It’s time for the magical folk to cast out this errant alien, to unbind themselves from the dictums of the State.
Actually, the only flag waving patriots I’ve seen lately have been the Marxists like Dr. Bones, Rhyd, Chris, and their anti-fascist and marxist friends. So maybe we should listen to Dr. Bones and do as he says, and drive the flag waving trolls from our lands…
How should the Magical Folk view Patriotism? The same as any other negative entity that seeks to control them: with contempt, suspicion, and about two gallons of Florida Water to keep it far, far away.
I would like to wrap this up by thanking Dr. Bones for his wonderful description and personal examples of propaganda, patriotism, and so forth. I agree, we should drive this marxist “patriotism” from our lands, viewing it with suspicion, contempt, and whatever the hel Florida Water is (even though it appears to be drying up).
Virginia Carper said:
I do believe that many of the G&R people are in a prolonged adolescence. If they want results, they have to engage. Ranting on a site doesn’t do diddly.
Engagement is needed to stop further development. That means looking up the zoning laws in your town, reviewing the projects that are before the Zoning Commission, and then appearing before the Commission with your objections, and gathering a group of like-minded folk to testify also. It also means getting on the Zoning Board, and changing the laws. It takes money, time, and effort. It also takes putting yourself on the line. I have seen citizen groups save parks from development, and developers back down. That is the magic that needs to be employed – effective thinking and work.
As for the view of the propaganda and the state, I do believe that he is ranting against the 1950s civil religion of “fighting godless communism” and the fear it encouraged. Civic religion can be changed, and has changed. Again, you have to engage in your schools and local places to change it.
I was a witness to the planes going into the Pentagon, and to the aftermath – the burning of the building, the evacuation of nearly everyone in the area (including me). The days afterwards, when some of us worried about the shredding of the Constitution. There was push back to what President Bush did, and there is push back now to what President Obama has continued. And there are vigourous discussions about employing troops and the like. Enter Mr. Trump and his statements about reviewing all of foreign policy from leaving NATO to removing troops from the Middle East.
I would like to think that Dr. Bones and others have directly protested Big Sugar, and the effects that it has done to Florida and elsewhere. Principled opposition is patriotic as well.
Virginia Carper said:
I hate leaving long answers. This is on a different topic.
About what people learn in schools on the narrative of White settlers and Native Americans. I was educated in New England and was taught both the Pequot massacre by the English, and King Philip’s War which nearly ended the English settlement of Massachusetts. The Native Americans from the time of Jamestown until the 1800s nearly succeeded in killing everyone in their territories. After losing, their nations were shattered and scattered. The Americans were poor winners. The point is that both sides gave everything they had, and went toe to toe.
But dwelling on White Privilege, Guilt, Shame which is the underpinning of many of G&R’s articles, they have actually elevated White people into being saviours of everyone else. If we (I consider myself White) could only reset the playing field, if we could only uncolonise ourselves, if only we White people did whatever, we would save everyone else from our badness. They have also fetishised everyone else in the process. By focusing on White Power, Supremacy, they have basically robbed everyone else of their agency. Again, White people are the center of the universe.
As Prime Minster Golda Meir say, “Don’t be so humble, you’re not that great.”
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Jön Upsal's Gardener said:
Couple of things. The good Doctor doesn’t really seem to have a problem with patriotism per se. Just American patriotism. He doubtless has no problem with the USSR calling World War 2 “The Great Patriotic War”, for instance. So this is just another in a long line of G&R anti-American hit pieces, masquerading as something more philosophical.
And yes, you remembered correctly about those strip malls being torn down to make parks. A two-minute Google search came up with several examples; there are doubtless many more. So much for the good Doctor’s ability to do even the most basic level of research to support his arguments.
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