It is in times of great tragedy that we come together to mourn. To remember, and to forgive.
Forgive the murderer and maimer of over 100 people that is.
Yep, you heard me. Today we delve further into necromancies being performed with the victims of Pulse, Orlando. Only today I fear we will not see the awakening of an man’s self awareness. Nope, today we’re looking at Tom Swiss’s article: Can We — Should We — Forgive A Monster?
Omar Mateen, who killed 49 people at the gay nightclub Pulse in Orlando on Sunday morning, was apparently a wannabe cop with an aggressive demeanor and a history of domestic violence. (Echoes here of George Zimmerman. Maybe if we took domestic violence more seriously we’d have put both these killers under supervision before it was too late.) After his wife left him he became seemed to become more religious, though apparently not in a way that actually impressed the core tenants of Islam on him.
Nice way to ignore the fifty something maimed and the dozens more traumatized, there Tommy boy.
So there’s two points already in our first paragraph that are complete misinformation.
1) George Zimmerman.
It was found due to the factual, scientific evidence that he killed Martin in an act of self defense. While Martin was trying to bash Zimmerman’s skull into the pavement. So…well done there. You have just equated the killing of a single black man in an act of self defense with the homophobic terrorist execution of fifty people.
2) that Omar here was not acting via the core tenants of Islam.
Hmm, well, one of the core tenants is to obey the will of Allah (cbuh) for he is perfect in all ways and what he decrees is the best of all things, and the will of Allah is that gay people are sinful and to be put to death. Now, the same argument could be made for Christianity, but if we look at world nations we will note that Islamic nations practice this “death for gays.” ISIS is famous for its building chucking, but Saudi Arabia beheads them with a sword, for example.
So Omar it seems was not transgressing much at all from the tenants of Islam.
His father says that the shooting had nothing to do with religion and that Mateen had developed an outrage about homosexuality after seeing two men kiss in public. But his father seems to have a tenuous grip on reality, posting incoherent videos about Afghani politics and praising the Taliban. So we may have an unreliable witness there.
Tfw you try to dodge so many bullets you end up running into them all.
One former co-worker describes Mateen as “unhinged and unstable”, and says he “talked of killing people”; another said, “He had bad things to say about everybody—blacks, Jews, gays, a lot of politicians, our soldiers. He had a lot of hate in him. He told me America destroyed Afghanistan.”
So Omar was a violent man who proclaimed his allegance to Islam and the Islamic State, the guy saying “he wasn’t acting for Islam” is his nationalistic Afghani father who support the Taliban (rivals of the ISIS), who may have problems with reality, and…why are we debating this again?
I mean the motive seems pretty clear cut here. I’ve seen murderers put away for less clearly defined motives. I feel like I’m forgetting something though…
Oh yeah, Muslims are the most “oppressed” minority in the world and so when a Muslim kills a bunch of gay people in the worst mass shooting in American history, we have to remember that it wasn’t because he was Muslim, Islam is a good boy, it didn’t do nuffin.
Honestly, I’m waiting for when people actually reach the point of bias that they start claiming Omar didn’t do nuffin either. I mean, his father already says “he’s a good boy” apparently.
He laughed as he murdered forty-nine people Sunday morning. Before he was killed, he told police he was a follower of the “Islamic State” a organization known for massacring the innocent.
“known for massacring the innocence.”
Geez, what a nice, tame, clean way of putting it. I mean, throwing gay people off buildings and stoning the corpses, a massive international sex slave operation, the attempted genocide of non-Muslim peoples in the area, oh and blowing up and shooting up innocent people from the USA to Europe and beyond. ALL IN THE NAME OF ISLAM!
See, dindu nuffin already starting.
So way to give into the homophobia there Tommy. I’m happy to see you’re already policing your language so as not to offend our new Muslim overlords. Of course, I can’t help but think if our killer had been white, or Christian, you might be singing a different tune. Tell me again, how did you react to Dylan Roof shooting up that black church and peoples’ sudden calls to ban any imagery of Southern Heritage? I don’t recall you asking for forgiveness for that shooter.
Had someone in the club managed to shoot him or stab him or club him down or do other horrible things to his body to try to stop his rampage, we would be hailing that person as a hero. We naturally and rightly feel a willingness to destroy him.
Fucking Hel, Tom, are you really implying that it is bad to kill a person who is massacring people in a night club? Are you really implying that we are bad people because we would rejoice and celebrate someone stopping murder?
That’s one story about what happened Sunday morning in Orlando. And it’s a true story. And our sorrow for the victims and our wrath for the perpetrator are both righteous.
Oh bloody, fucking Hel. Tom is really about to do that isn’t he…
But this also is true:
Omar Mateen was apparently himself a repressed gay man, torn between the expectations of his family and ancestral culture and his own feelings. He used the gay dating app “Jack’d” and made at least a dozen visits to Pulse before the attack, becoming drunkenly belligerent on a few occasions — rather as we might expect someone torn between two powerful drives to do.
What did I say? Dindu nuffin! Omar was a good boy, he was just torn apart inside by his own repressed desires to take dick up the ass. Omar didn’t choose to gun down over a hundred people and inflict one of the worst anti-gay violent attacks in American history. Omar was the victim here. Poor Omar, who couldn’t live with the shame of his culture’s morals and his own desires.
He asked a male classmate out on a date and was turned down; that classmate says that others felt sorry for him, that “He just wanted to fit in and no one liked him…He was always socially awkward.” A decade ago he was friendly with a drag queen and his lesbian co-workers; I can picture a young man just a few years out of high school, starting to explore gay culture, wondering if it was for him.
A see? See, if that classmate hadn’t been such an asshole back then, and gone a date with Omar, this could have been prevented. But people didn’t like Omar, he was awkward and gay and people hate that and it drove him to the point where he decided to get a couple guns, maybe a bomb, and go kill as many gay people as he possibly could.
Omar is the true victim here. Why, being refused a date is a perfect excuse to give into your rage and go murder the people who rejected you. Yeah, you know, I’m sure Tom wrote an article about that dude who shot up a college campus simply because girls wouldn’t go out with him, and said that “maybe if these girls had dated him, lose of life could be prevented!” I’m positive that Tommy said something like that back then.
But that didn’t go over well. His ex-wife reports that his father denounced him in front of her for being gay.
She also reports that he was bipolar (though that is apparently an informal, lay diagnosis) and had a history of steroid use. Steroid use is five times more common among gay and bi male teens than among their straight peers, and it’s widely believed that this pattern continues into adulthood in part due to body image and hyper-masculinity issues within gay culture. Such use has been linked to mood disorders and aggression, though as always it’s hard to tell the direction of causality. (“I’m depressed, maybe putting on pounds of muscle and getting ripped would help me feel better about myself. Or maybe punching someone out would help me feel powerful.”)
Seee, steroids, mental illness, the hatred of his father. Omar wasn’t in control of his actions and he wasn’t acting according to Islam or ISIS when he killed and maimed over a hundred people. Nope, Omar was the real victim, he never had a choice, he never had options, all he ever had was a theoretical steroid addition and the homophobia of his classmates who refused to go out on dates with him and his father who wanted him to be a good boy (But totally not in the homophobic Islamic way, because that’s not Islam you know).
So you know, Tom’s real sorry for all those dead gay people who died. But we should remember that it was the apparently “repressed gay” killer who we should really feel sorry for. He’s the true victim.
When Mateen claimed to ally himself with the “Islamic State”, he also said that he was a member of Hezbollah — which is an enemy of the “Islamic State”, on the other side of the Sunni/Shia divide. It’s as if his actions weren’t driven by Islamist extremism but at the end of his life he felt compelled to make some horribly confused and mistaken gesture of identification with his ancestral culture.
JUNO’S RAGING CUNT!
“Well, ISIS and Hezbollah are enemies so he couldn’t really have been doing this because of Islam.”
Fucking Hel man. If a mass shooter gunned down a black church and before he did it he pledged allegiance to the KKK and the Aryan Brotherhood (two organizations as much enemies as Hezbollah and ISIS are) would you be going round saying he wasn’t doing in the name of White Supremacy? Are you really that mother loving stupid? Both those organizations are Islamic Supremacist organizations. Both are insanely homophobic! Both fucking kill innocent people!
And you’re trying to claim because it’s two, different rival organizations that this is proof he was not acting for the Islamic Ideal that his family believed in and taught him? Are you so desperate to believe anything but the Truth, that Omar was not a good boy and that he completely did do something horrific, that you’re willing to pull this level of doublethink and bullshitery? I would call you a Faggot, but that would be an insult to even faggots because they have more character and balls than you do at this moment Tom! Fucking Hel, one of my favorite people online (@Nero) Calls himself a Faggot and his fans faggots. But you Tom, you’re a mother fucking cuck who would sit back and watch his lover be raped and say “well, really, the rapist is the true victim here.”
If we heard this story about someone who hadn’t committed one of the worst mass murders in American history, we might find our hearts moved in sympathy with someone so torn. Even if that person had committed lesser crimes of violence, we might condemn some of their actions while understanding the confusion and pain in which they were rooted. We might even see someone we wanted to help.
Bloody Hel, sometimes I wish I could do these as videos so you could tell how pissed off I am about this. We have literally reached “women are the true victims of war” levels of stupidity. Forget all the dead and wounded, this was one of the worst terrorist attacks we’ve ever had, one of the worst cases of homophobic violence we’ve ever had, forget everything except for the fact that Omar got his feelings hurt and that’s what made him kill (oh, and forget the fact that his God said ‘kill all gay people, it is a mercy’).
Omar was the true victim at Pulse.
Moved by such a story, we might resolve to reach out to LGBT youth to make sure they have the social support they need to explore their own natures and find their way in the world, with a special focus on those coming from immigrant families from conservative cultures. We might consider that when someone speaks hatefully about others they are often speaking from a place of pain, and might try — as hard as it is — to not rise to the hate and instead to look for the pain.
Tom, do not act like you care about gay people.
If you actually cared about gay people, you would not be asking us to feel like Omar was a good boy, who dindu nuffin. If you cared about gay people, you would be willing to admit that Omar was a bad person, who believed bad things, because of a backwards, regressive, homophobic religion, and that those bad things led him to do bad things to other people.
Omar was a natural born American. He had plenty of chances to go find gay friends (which he did), to get the help he needed (which he didn’t) and to find other systems of belief than Homophobic Islam (which he didn’t do). Instead, Omar chose to embrace homophobia and hatred and religiously motivated violence. Those were his choices, Tom.
I am not going to feel sorry for him because he made his own choices about what to do with his life. I will feel sorry for the people he killed, I will demand that Islam be brought under control and its homophobic doctrines crushed, and that gay people be defended from further attacks. BUT I WILL NOT FORGIVE OMAR.
We might even try — a nearly impossible task, but we might try anyway — to apply that here, to look for the pain that drove Mateen’s actions. And even as we mourn the murdered and try to help the survivors, we might mourn also for Mateen, for that young man laughing with the drag queen and the lesbian bartenders; mourn for a life that could have been, under different circumstances.
Bloody fucking Hela. Tom, it appears, does not believe that Omar had his own agency. That Omar had absolutely no choices in his life or control over his choices. I am literally amazed that at this point Tom hasn’t tried to make the arguement that the victims of Omar were in fact his oppressors because they got to live their gay lives openly while he was “forced to hide in a closet of shame.”
Oh wait, OMAR COULD HAVE LIVED AN OPENLY GAY LIFE!
Omar had fucking choices. He chose to kill. He chose to kill, because he chose to believe in a religion that says “Allah says kill all the gays!” He could have chosen to not worship Allah. He could have even chosen to worship Allah and not kill gay people. But no, Omar chose to worship Allah, swear allegiance to ISIS, and go kill gay people. Why should I morn a life Omar decided he didn’t want? Wouldn’t it be better to instead review the life he chose and figure out where the fuck he went wrong?
Of course, we won’t do that. There’s too much blood and too much anger. We’ll whip up more fear and suspicion again each other. One side of the partisan divide will rail against Muslims and immigrants and maybe even say that Mateen’s actions show gay men are a danger, and the other will rail against gun owners and demand more censorship of “hate speech” and maybe even say that Mateen’s actions show Islam is a danger.
There, fixed it for you.
Actually, no I didn’t. Because the two sides appear to be more along the lines of “one side is going to rail against Muslims and Immigrants and say that Islam is a danger and that Gay men are In danger.” And the other side is “going to rail against gun owners, demand more censorship of “hate speech” and rail that Muslims are in danger.”
By the way, that’s @Nero everyone. The most fabulous faggot in the world, one of the smartest men I’ve come to watch, and a homosexual.
Go ahead Tom, silence a gay voice.
Unwilling and unable to make the changes in human relationships that might reduce the chances of this happening again, we’ll demand the state take highly visible but ultimately ineffective steps to protect us (“security theater”), and we’ll authorize more surveillance of each other — and never mind that Mateen had already been investigated by the FBI twice, that when everyone (or at least every Muslim) is a suspect there’s no way to sort out the true threats.
We need to stop feeling sorry for the Bad Guys. We need to admit that there are bad people out there, with bad ideas, who believe bad things. Bad things that hurt other people. This is not to say that all violence is wrong, nor that every action should be acceptable, but it is to say that when you have an ideology, like Islam, which says “Gay people are to be killed,” and you have Muslims who in their own nations murder their own gay communities…it’s time to stand up.
It’s time to say, “You do not have the right to murder someone because of who they want to fuck.” You can disagree with them, you can believe their actions are immoral, and disgusting, but you do not have the right to murder them.
Or we could just not do that and let the Islamic homophobic bigotry that caused the Pulse shooting to happen at the hands of a self proclaimed Islamic Terrost be pushed under the rug as we all whip ourselves and shout “mea culpa, the killer is the true victim here.”
And then nothing changes and when this happens again you can throw up your hands to the Gods and ask “why have you allowed this to happen, we punished ourselves greatly for that man’s crimes.”
A toxic cultural combination sent one man into his own hell, and on Sunday morning he reached out and pulled over a hundred people into the center of it with him. Hundreds more — the families and friends of those killed and wounded — were yanked into rings of that hell.
And now, in fear and mistrust, the whole nation is poised to jump in after him.
Remember kids, the fighting the Nazis is the same thing as being the Nazis.
See, what Tom doesn’t get here is that it’s about choices.
Omar chose to believe in a homophobic Islam. He chose to go to the club, he chose to name himself for ISIS, and he chose to kill and hurt as many people as he possibly could.
And I choose to hold him accountable for those choices. I choose to hold the ideology he believed in accountable for the beliefs that he chose to enact. I choose to stand with the gay community and say that they do not deserve to be killed in the Name of Allah.
And Tom chooses to sit in a chair and watch as people are violated and wax poetic about how being a cuck is noble because he sees the humanity in the murderer even as the murderer murders.
I’mma do the Heathen thing and make sure my swords are sharp. Because in Helheim we do not forgive the terrorists who murder the innocent.