So another one of those who has decided to prove “um nut racisms” in the wake of the AFA talking about how they like heterosexaulity and babies is a place called Heathen Talk in a post called: The AFA: It’s that time again.
It’s starts off with this gem of tolerance and understanding:
Well the reins have changed hands and, with a change of leadership the AFA has decided to embrace the ideals they’d only skirted in the past. Last time the AFA leadership stuck his foot in his mouth I wrote about why he was misguided. I issued an invitation to come on the show and clarify and I weathered the insults and virulence that the myopic followers of that man brought here. This time I’m not inviting the leadership on the show, I won’t subject my co-hosts and audience to the drivel of small minded bigots. Here is the initial comment that so clearly places the AFA among the bigots:
“Myopic followers” and “small minded bigots.”
Oh I can just feel the love and tolerance for diverse people’s and beliefs here, can’t you? Such humanity, such respect for the shared spiritual souls of all beings.
Of course we have to remember that what all started this was a minority religion and people making clear their religion and tribe’s views on gender identity and the preservation of their ethnic tribe. So I mean since that kind of behavior is unacceptable I suppose Heathen talk will soon be making posts about how Muslims need to stop being so homophobic and misogynistic and how the Native Americans/First Nation peoples need to stop being such racists and open up their tribes and religions to everyone regardless of that person’s “race.”
He then goes over what the AFA said with a screen cap, how he asked for clarification, and then how it was clarified with a statement that was “pulled from the page.” That being said, someone in the comments section states that the “clarification” is still up on facebook.
Which is when we get to this gem. Now it is this gem which is why I decided to write this post, rather than leave Heathen Talk to do it’s talking. Mostly because it does a wonderful job of showing how everyone screaming at the AFA kinda has their head up their ass about the situation and their counter arguments (or lack there of).
I shouldn’t have to explain why this is an issue. It is 2016, this shouldn’t even be an issue, we should be living in a more enlightened world. Unfortunately, ideas such as Mr. Flavel’s still permeate the underside of Asatru and thus need to be addressed. First, let me be clear: Mr. Flavel and the AFA have a right to their opinion and a right to state it openly. The first amendment guarantees their right to be wrong and even hateful. I do not, nor does Heathen Talk, embrace a no platform policy. We do, however, want to take this moment to embrace our right to publicly and vociferously disagree — and perhaps even mock — the small mindedness that brings about these opinions.
Stating the year is not an argument. Stating the present year isn’t even close to being an argument, and even if it was an argument it is a terrible argument.
“It’s 1816, the right to own slaves shouldn’t even be an issue!”
“It’s 1492, the necessity of the Inquisition to find Jews and Muslims secretly living in our kingdom shouldn’t even be an issue!”
“…This shouldn’t even be an issue…”
So there is only one acceptable point of view on this issue, and it is the one “you” currently hold “this year.” I mean, in 1916 there were only two genders and one sexual orientation. I suppose we could argue then that “it’s 1916, this shouldn’t even be an issue,” were we to talk about how it was back then?
Everything can be an issue, everyone is entitled to a different point of view about a topic. There is no “singular right” way to do things or believe about issues.
“…We should be living in a more Enlightened world.”
And here’s a major issue for HT. But just incased anyone missed it.
Enlightenment aka The Enlightenment, was an 18th century philosophical movement that pushed for the Supremacy of Reason. It has greatly influenced our modern western society and all in all, is a pretty good philosophy if you want one to abide by. However, The Enlightenment is not Asatru, which is a pre-Christian ethnic and religious way of viewing the world based on the traditions of our ancestors from the 11th century on back.
Telling a man that “it’s 2016, get with the times,” when said man’s entire goal in life is to live like it is 816 is…pointless. He is not going to care what year it is presently, because the morality of the present year is not the morality to which that man wants to hold. And trying to use Enlightenment as a reason for why he should believe something when he believes in a completely different philosophy is also stupid.
It would be like a Islamist telling a Buddhist to kill gay people because it’s 2016, how have you not converted to Islam yet!!!!!
The point of the AFA is not to live in an “Enlightened World,” but to live in a “Heathen World.”
It’s the way HT ends the paragraph though that’s a real kicker.
“…We do, however, want to take this moment to embrace our right to publicly and vociferously disagree — and perhaps even mock — the small mindedness that brings about these opinions.”
Let’s teach these small minded bigots how to be tolerant of other people by…being absolute bigots to them.
I mean, really, this is suppose to Enlighten the members of the AFA? “Hurr, I think you guys are assholes, so to teach you not to be assholes, I’m gonna be an asshole to you.”
Brilliant, just fucking brilliant. Way to be enlightened there HT. Truly living up to your own values.
Gender is the current trending topic, it’s been all over the news for the last several years, and sexuality has been a Hot Topic for several decades. The AFA does claim that they do not “police what people do in their bedrooms”, however, they are also implying that certain demographics just aren’t good enough — not normal enough — to be heathen, or rather Asatru…
Yeah, gender is currently a trending topic. And typically how that topic has gone is a full on Transgender Crusade, where in anyone who dares stand against them has their lives systematically ruined. It’s been a major thing in Paganism the last couple years, especually between the Dianics and the Transgenders and we all know hot that ended…
With the Dianics being wiped out of Pagan spaces in what could be easily considered an “ethnic cleansing” as the Pagan community cheered it on.
And it’s the same story everywhere. “Give us what we want, bow to all our demands, or we will annihilate your bigotted ass from the face of the earth.” And before HT tries to claim I’m nothing more than an uneducated bigot, I am referencing factual events and their outcomes without bias. You know, being ENLIGHTENED.
Is it any wonder then, having watched what has happened both in Paganism and the larger world as less that 1% of the population terraforms all of society into their image that they would say, “fuck that, don’t even let it in the door.” I mean, the entire point of the AFA is to reclaim and preserve the ancient ways of their people. Not to have them terraformed in the name of gender identity. However “just” and “enlightened” that terraforming might be.
…Let’s talk history for just a second. We know that in some heathen cultures homosexuality was a thing that happened and wasn’t grounds for ostracization. We know that men and women performed roles and duties that were outside of the culturally normal gender roles. Hell, we even know that the “traditional” family in ancient heathendom didn’t look like the modern “traditional” family. So what exactly are they regurgitating here? It isn’t based on a reconstructionist method of Heathenry, that much is clear…
Citation fucking needed.
Really? What heathen tribes were these? When were they, where were they? Proof? Evidence? Wikilinks? Anything man, give me anything so that I might have evidence of your claims! Because I have studied the history, and the lore, and while I have not been anal about it, I have read people who are who have discussed this topic and the honest ones always admit “It wasn’t banned, but it was seriously frowned upon to the point of being almost banned.”
And yeah, gender roles aren’t exactly the same as the “Traditional family” whatever the hell that is, but fucking Hela man, I’ve seen nothing that says the AFA isn’t trying to keep to the traditional Norse family. But no, HT sees a “mommy and a daddy and a baby” and apparently has to flip the fuck out!
…Simply put, this is the same song and dance that has been a part of the Christian dominated paradigm since at least the Victorian Era. The longing for a time when “men were men and women were women” is nothing more than the pining of a weak minded individual for a history that never existed. Men and women have always had nuance to their roles in society, sexuality has never been black and white, and from time immemorial there have been sexually male or female individuals who were much more comfortable living as the other sex…
Please, please stop talking history and culture. It is very obvious that HT has little understanding of both.
I mean, mother fucking hell, provide some citations! Example! Facts! At this point, I’m reading and all I wanna ask is “was the kool-aid grape or cherry?” Because this is the exact same stuff you hear from the Transgender community and they never can back shit up.
And what is this “AFA are acting like Christians” Bullshit? Fucking Hela, but that is the oldest, tiredest, and deadest insult I have heard in Pagan communities. At this point, I hear “you’re acting like a Christian,” and I do the same thing I do when I hear “You’re a fucking racist.”
Namely, start listening to the “christian/racist” because they probably have something good to say, since the people who use that insult have proven themselves such massively bigoted assholes who can’t stand HERESY!!!!!! against their dogma of bigoted intolerance.
…This is reality, and you know what, it’s a good reality. The diversity of life is a wonderful thing and being who you are is a good thing. As a heathen I don’t care who you sleep with or what gender you identify as, I only care that you are a good person who benefits your people. If you are a member of the LGBTQ+ community, the AFA isn’t for you and they don’t deserve you, you’re too good for them. Heathen Talk has your back, I personally have your back. We may not always play nice, but we don’t brook bigotry.
The AFA wouldn’t understand ethnicity if the concept jumped up and bit them on their collective nethers. White is NOT an ethnicity, European is not an ethnic group and it certainly isn’t a cultural monolith. Being white does not make you special, it does not grant you some greater connection to the arch heathens, it is not some signal to the gods that you are worthy, and for the sake of all that is could possibly be acceptable, can we not use children to promote ignorance?…
Seriously, you shouldn’t clutch your pearls that tightly, they’ll break.
But I’m going to try something here and let’s see how this work:
The BLM wouldn’t understand ethnicity if the concept jumped up and bit them on their collective nethers. Black is NOT an ethnicity, African is not an ethnic group and it certainly isn’t a cultural monolith. Being black does not make you special, it does not grant you some greater connection to the arch africans, it is not some signal to the gods that you are worthy, and for the sake of all that is could possibly be acceptable, can we not use children to promote ignorance?
Wow, that sounds like it would be pretty damn racist. Good thing they only said it about “White” people.
I mean, I hate to buy into that whole “heathen religions promote racism” thing, but holy shit, Heathen Talk is making want to start buying into Racism for the sake of white people. I mean, damnit, if this was said about Muslims, or Blacks, or Jews, they would be ripped out into the street and set on fire. I generally don’t give two shits about race, but god damn it, this guy is supposedly demanding tolerance for GLBT people even as he is practically saying “white people aren’t even really people, they’re not an ethnicity, they don’t have a right to their heritage based on who they are, and they have not worth!”
…Is it too much to ask that you leave the kids out of it? I have already shown the great diversity of ethnic groups that come from the continent of Europe and how through intermarriage and political wrangling many of them came to share some basic cultural similarities. As we reconstruct and revive this religion we see that, even as our differences have become more and more manifest, the similarities in gift cycle, ritual, and language remain. There is a culture to heathenry, and it isn’t tied to skin color. Culture is about what we do, how we do it, and why we do it. We have the benefit of living in a modern and diverse world, it’s past time to embrace it. Heathens can and do come from many places on this planet. I know Brazilian heathens, I know of heathens living in India from Indian descent, it doesn’t take a shade of melanin to worship the gods, and it never has.
I am not here to educate Mr. Flavel, or even the AFA. I honestly don’t care about them. I am here to say in front of the world, the AFA is not Heathen, they do not represent heathenry, and we at Heathen Talk will not stand quietly by while they tarnish our religion with their shoddy reputation. The AFA can have Asatru, it’s in their name, it’s time they stopped pretending to be heathen.
“ISIS IS NOT MUSLIM, THEY JUST HAVE ISLAM IN THE NAME!!!!”
“THE AFA IS NOT HEATHEN, THEY JUST HAVE ASATRU IN THE NAME!!!!”
Oh bloody Hela, I have accused of some mental gymnastics in the past, but how fucking hard do you have to work to get to that, HT?
Fucking Hel, I could take the “heterosexual families are degeneracy,” and sure, I got a bit pissed at the entirely racist statement”white people are not a people.” But God damn it, man, Now you’re to the point “Heathens are really Heathens, even though they founded Heathenism in the USA.”
If you were pissed off, or upset by, by Mr. Flavel and the AFA’s statements, good…
I actually didn’t care until people like you got all pissed off. Then I applauded them, actually.
…Those kinds of statements should leave you incensed, anyone who comes that close to outright reciting the 14 words should absolutely elicit that kind of response from you. Don’t judge heathenry by the proud ignorance of those who are incapable of growing into the world around them…
Well, I will try not to let your far more racist and even sexist statements try not to influence my view of what Heathens are then, since I shouldn’t do that. According to you.
…Heathenry is a life affirming, diverse, and nuanced set of religious beliefs that has practitioners of strong moral character all over the world. It is a religion practised in many places and many ways, and there is nothing in its core that lends itself to hate and bigotry…
I’m laughing, because if I do not laugh, I will cry.
…We believe in making our communities, and our world, better for future generations. We work and play with and among people of all types, regardless of race, gender, creed or religion, because we believe that your deeds make you, not some arbitrary set of genetic markers or beliefs. We are Americans, Canadians, Brazilians, Australians, and so many many more nationalities, and we care for those around us because without our neighbors the world is naught but chaos. Judge us by our deeds as we stand against Mr. Flavel and his ilk, join us in solidarity as we try to make our world a little better.
Wow, that is like, Mainer levels of cuckoldry there. “Guys, please don’t hate us like them, we’re not like them, we promise!!!”
Admitely, HT has a lot more racism and sexism in their post defending themselves than Mainer did (for which I will actually applaud Mainer’s restraint). But seriously, guys, they aren’t like those “bad heathens” cause those “bad heathens” aren’t even really heathens at all.
Fucking Hela I’m getting flashbacks to all the Islamic appologetics for ISIS at this point. The “No True Heathen” fallacy is strong here.
To the AFA and any who would defend them:
I mean seriously, I’m not part of the AFA, I’m not that folkish (I’m honestly more universalist in some ways for the moment). But the degrees of racism, sexism, bigotry, and hatred I have seen leveled at them in the name of “tolerance and diversity” is…it’s well sickening. I’ve already had to watch one pagan religion be destroyed for “wrongthink” and I got no intentions of watching it happen to another. Especially to one which has served my pantheon’s Gods faithfully and with honest hearts. Love or hate the AFA, they are a people much demeaned as racist, but not renowned as oathbreakers or impietus.
They may have some views I don’t agree with, but their faith is open, it is honest, and they have not lied about what they stood for. Which is more than I can say for most heathen organizations out there. HT appears completely willing to throw their own “people” under the bus in order to appeal to “the right kinds of people.” The Troth has appeared to throw it’s own leaders off their thrones for the sake public appearance after their leaders do so little as say “McNallen and the AFA are not the worst asshats in heathenism.”
Why should I stop defending the people who are being attacked by bigots who preach things that would be considered racism and sexism if spoken about anyone else on this gods damn planet?
You aren’t fighting some grand battle to save your people.
No I’m not.
I’m fighting a pissant skirmish against some people who get their kicks of of racist virtue signalling, that they do in the vain hopes their “fellow believers” will not rape them to death, skin them, and eat them (and if they’re very lucky, do it in that order). Why? Because they hate the fact that a rather successful group of heathens is keeping to a world view that has been the dominant one for literally 99.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999+% of humanity’s history and their ancestral culture, and these detractors are fucking jealous of them.
…You both live and work in the United States of America. You are free to believe and behave as you will within the limits of the law but your words as public figures have consequences for any who even appear to share a connection to you. You aren’t winning this argument…
Actually…they are winning this argument.
Oh sure, their voices might not be heard, and at the end of the day people like HT will crow about how they victoriously stood up against the Bigoted AFA, but…
The AFA is bigger than them. It’s bigger than the biggest universalist group the Troth. It’s growing faster than them. It’s building temples, and communities, and families and having kids who they will raise as Afar.
Every single Heathen group who has come out to say “that’s not true heathenism, we’re nothing like that” is having to do so because when people think of Heathenism…they think of the AFA. They think of people like those in the AFA. Like it or not, the AFA not only is winning the argument for what Heathenism is, all this backlash is only going to drive more people to them.
I mean fucking Hel, I’m not part of the AFA, I don’t agree with all their stuff, and these last few days I’ve found myself repeatedly thinking, “Fuck, I kinda wanna join those guys. They stand for something, and they don’t back down because a bunch of offended assholes scream at them.”
Saying the AFA isn’t “winning the argument” is like saying Trump isn’t “winning the election.” He’s all that get’s talked about, everyone knows where he stands, and the more he gets attacked for being “everything wrong with this country” the more people support him because all those who have stood for “everything right” have proven themselves as bad, if not worse, than “everything wrong.” And it’s the same story with the AFA.
…You are free to have your beliefs, and I won’t even try to convince you you’re wrong. I want you to consider this though, your kids know you’re wrong. Even the young ones know that you are wrong. As they grow up, the foolishness of this position will burn in them, it will forever be the thing they are ashamed to admit to their friends. It will be a wedge that comes between you, one that forces them to decide which of their relationships they will bring home, and which they will hide from you, and from which they hide you…
And it’s because of shit right here.
“How dare you use children in your argument to prove you’re right. Now let me weaponize your own kids against you to show you how you’re wrong.”
Fucking Hela, HT can’t even keep to their own standard. “Don’t use kids,” because “We use kids.”
Frankly, I doubt his prediction is accurate. If it was, the Amish would be extinct by now, as would be the Muslims in the USA. But no…both groups are still around with their “bigoted, sexist ideologies.” So…fuck that noise, really.
…This isn’t a matter of if, but when. When you grow old and have become the uncle or grandparent that your family is ashamed of, that’s on you. It will be painful for your family, and that pain will be needless, their shame will be pointless. Your families will pay to build and buy back the reputation, worth, and honor you have squandered on words. As it stands now, merely being a member of the AFA, or an apologist for the AFA, is a tarnish not easily removed. The words and actions of anyone who is beholden to your organization will now be questioned and examined against what you have said. You have cost your people dearly, you have cost your families dearly. If what is bad for the tribe is bad, than what you have done today is heinous.
“You are an Unperson. Your thoughtcrimes, no matter how distant, shall be used against you and your entire family. Your family will hate you every day for doing what you thought was right. You will be denied a place in our world, shunned and humiliated. We, the commissariat have spoken. The MiniTru would like to thank you for your obedience. Heathenism has always been TransInclusive. Remember, Freedom is Slavery, White is not Right, and Obedience is Virtue.”
And really…that’s why the AFA is going to win this argument.
HT spent an entire post telling a whole lot of people, people who have seen a whole lot of racist, sexist, intolerant shit directed towards them, that they are nothing more than degenerate, evil creatures and how dare they even consider being good. The AFA, on the other hand, didn’t even say that anyone was bad, just that “these people” are good people in their eyes.
Who do you think those people are going to go to? The Guys telling them “you’re evil, you’re not really a race, how dare you ever feel maligned no matter how bad others talk about you for not being the good things.” Or the guys saying: “Hey, we value people like you, we want people like you to return to their ancestors ways, and bring forth new generations so that you and yours can carry on.”
There is nothing more capable of making people “pro-something” than a bunch of assholes standing against it.
So really, I wanna give a round of applause to HT, and Mainer, and everyone else out there screaming about how evil and hateful the AFA is. Because the only thing you’ve managed to do…is make even neutral parties like me consider them with a much more favorable gaze. Well done.
Ya fucking bigots.
Kenaz Filan said:
I am very seriously considering starting a web forum/publication called Polytheism Uncucked (“All Gods, No Apologies”). Much as the word has been abused, “cucked” is a perfect description of what they want from us. We’re supposed to debase our ancestors and call them genocidal murderers: we’re expected to applaud while they defile our traditions and mock our elders. But no matter how much groveling we do it will never be enough. Not until they’ve dragged our faiths down to their social justice LARPing will they be satisfied.
Honestly, I’ve never given a shit one way or another about being white. I only became interested in the subject when people started screaming “Kill Whitey!!!” — and the fact that it was mostly white people doing the screaming only made me feel worse. If that is what’s expected of “good white people” count me out.
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Virginia Carper said:
Sounds like if you don’t denounce AFA, you are a racist. Funny that since it has been thought of that for a long time. Perhaps, the reason that everyone has to denounce it now is because The Pagan Committee on Unpagan Activities will haul your ass before them before they pop you into Pagan jail for being a fellow traveller.
Shades of McCarthy Era.
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Jön Upsal's Gardener said:
Hence the virtue signalling.
There is nuance here that neither side is addressing. White culture is *not* a monolith, no. But even they admit there are shared cultural values among the various white cultures. Details may differ, the ethics and mores really don’t.
People have been so blinded by PC correctness, and our shared ‘white culture’ obsession with the “exotic” and “foreign” that we don’t even realize embracing that which desires to kill us will, in the end, do just that.
The only reason gender roles are blurred in our modern time is because of technology. Take the technology away and I guarantee within a year at most, we would all be back to more gender – or rather, biological sex – appropriate roles. Men do most of the heavy lifting (though to be fair our ancestors, even female, were much stronger and more fit than we give them credit for), women do the tasks that can be picked up and put down easily – because they are the ones who feed the little ones and do a greater portion of the caring for them.
Daycare is a modern invention. Historically speaking, your children went to work with you, if you worked outside the home – and if your work was in your home, they were helping you. Whether you were a shop keeper or a shoemaker, or a dyer (outside of town, because most of the processes for natural dyes STINK to high heaven), your children helped you. And you also had apprentices. Daycare means that your children have no value to your work, that they must be hidden away for others to care for. Which is NOT a heathen value, however you define it. Now days many MUST use daycare, but let’s look at it for what it is – a stopgap because our people are forced to have jobs outside the home that diminish the value of the home. Just another form of slavery – work for someone else, to make them rich, instead of working to enrich your family and home.
I will take note that basically everyone on HT is obese. Which tells me they are not interested in being fit, in adhering to the traditional value our ancestors placed on not overindulging in food/drink, and in contributing in real physical ways to the tribe. I am not sure, but I don’t believe any of them are parents, either.
Finally, I would like to point out that at no time did the AFA ever state they speak for all heathenry (as these HT and Troth and AAA and TAC and HUAR folks have done). They only speak for their members. On the other hand, all these other groups are trying to excommunicate the AFA from the ‘heathen umbrella’ (and how I laugh typing those words!) by becoming the ASA popes, and trying to weed out ‘heresy’ from heathenry. How DARE they say they value white children! How DARE they say they value the ethics/mores most of us were raised with, and how DARE they say they want these values to be honored and passed on to our children???
There are those within the AFA who are, in fact, racist. I have dealt with a few. I have also dealt with many more who are balanced and nuanced in their views. They recognize that no, heathenry is not for everyone. It’s for those who can understand the cultures, values, ethics, and mores of our ancient (and more recent) ancestors, and who want to return to the worship of the Gods of our ancestors. And in this I think they share the idea promoted by HT that it is the shared culture that is important. But as long as one side is screaming RACIST at the other there will be no meeting in the middle.
Why people are wasting their time promoting division over frankly stupid and in many cases deliberate twisting and misrepresenting what was actually said in order to promote their own equally twisted ideals is beyond me. It actually makes me want to just step away because the fringe elements on both sides creep me out and make me shake my head.
Oh, and sorry, I know you are just trying to use acronyms but Afar is an actual African tribe. So calling AFA members by that particular name is likely to really piss some of them off. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afar_people
Lucius Svartwulf Helsen said:
Actually, my use of “Afar” isn’t really “using acronyms.” It came from a thought expermint I had where I was thinking “in 200/500/1000 years from now, how would we think/talk about ourselves. Since Ar/R is the norse equivalent to “ian”, basicallly, the idea that the AFA might eventually call themselves the AFAr, and eventually just the Afar (similar to Alfar) kinda stuck in my head.
Did not know there was an african tribe called that, though. Kinda cool.
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Admittedly, I used to be much like HT. I clung desperately to my Asian ancestry and denied my Scots Irish and Cherokee roots on the other side. But now, after years of seeing deplorable behavior like the kind you’re pointing out, I have explored my “white” half and found amazing, fascinating history and culture and I have embraced both sides of myself.
So from someone who has seen both sides, thank you for pointing out why people like me have started flocking to folkist religions like the AFA. We are tired of being labeled evil, and we’re beginning to see the merit in viewing the things people say are bad and deciding for ourselves.
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