I tend to respond to major comments on my posts in their own posts. Mostly because I like to keep things above the fold, it gives me something to post, and when trouble comes to the Hall of Svartwulf, Svartwulf let’s the whole hall see it.
Previously, I talked about Huginn’s Heathen Hof and their Declaration 127, which is an open call for discrimination by signators against the Asatru Folk Assembly for the crimes of heteronormativity, ethno-preference, and the belief that the AFA dare lay claim to the universal human right of self preservation of both their people and traditions.
Because how dare they, apparently.
But, I got a response from the Universalist camp which I’m going to break down and respond to. Allen Reeves (@TheRaginPagan) of twitter, decided that where other men might sit down, he would stand up. Because to him, “There are some issues with this.”
Conflict MN targeted the AFA because of their involvement in brutalities against CMN, and on their clear stance of anti-Fascism, not anti-Heathenry. For them it was not about the AFA’s religion, but their well known association with white supremacist, neo-nazi politics.
I was not aware that the AFA had gone to war and engaged in “brutalities” against Conflict MN. I was not aware of this because no one has mentioned it where I have seen it. Not the AFA, not the Wild Hunt (whose article I quoted when talking about Conflict MN shutting down the AFA’s gathering. Which the WH stated had been done partially because of the outcry and Declaration 127, see my previous post). In fact, no heathen group that I have seen raging against the AFA’s statement has mentioned anywhere anything about the AFA having given brutalities to CMN.
It seems like the kind of thing the Universalists would have mentioned.
Not to mention the truth of the matter, according to a comment from Jo of Upsal is…it was a single AFA member who engaged in defensive violence against CMN when CMN apparently attacked an event said AFA member was attending. I guess this means that a single AFA member is so powerful by themselves as to “commit brutalities” upon entire groups of CMN members.
Now, even if the AFA had committed brutalities against CMN, my general impression from having heard about other “brutalities” against anti-fascist organizations typically follows a set pattern. Some group holds a get together. The anti-fascists mob up and go attack the gathering. The anti-fascists are handed their asses and claim they are the victims of “fascist violence” even though they started it. Which this event seems to have been as such.
Now, the AFA is not a white-supremacist organization. They have publicly sworn oaths against it. What they are, perhaps, is a white-normative organization that doesn’t apologize for being white. Which in the eyes of most is the same thing as being white supremacist. Nor, to my knowledge, has the organization engaged in neo-nazi politics…that being said, the definition of neo-nazi politics these days is so broad as to cover literally half of the US political system, if not more.
But let’s not forget, that the AFA is a Heathen organization, and all Heathen religions for quite a while were listed in total as white supremacist organizations and hate groups by places like the SPLC. Indeed, last I checked, most Heathens and their symbols were listed as “white supremacist” in nature by most “anti-racist” organizations. And that label is used on “universalist” Heathen groups as well last I checked.
And of course, to an Anti-Fascist, everyone who is not an anti-fascist is either a fascist or someone who isn’t getting with the anti-fascism program. Given that such groups would look at, say, the SPLC and see that “Heathens are White Supremacists” they would of course attack any Heathen organization they came across.
Not only that but your whole diatribe about Jews, indigenous Americans, etc is misplaced and poorly thought out, in that those groups don’t toot around about how they’re superior to everyone else…
It wasn’t a diatribe. It was a comparison. Jews, Native Americans, and many other groups are all ethno-centric in nature. All of them are defined by their ethnicity, who is and is not a member.
And there are members in each community who do, in fact, “toot around about how they’re superior.” Hel, among Jews it’s a great joke about how they’re superior to everyone (I was part of the Jewish community for many, many years). Admittedly, they tend to joke about how they’re superior, and yet still get the shit end of the stick, but it is a great mark of pride among Jews just how successful their ethnic group is on average in the world. Justly deserved pride too, at that. Just listen to Adam Sandler’s “Hanuka Songs” where he talks about all the famous people coming to Hanuka.
But even if not vocal about it, most ethnic groups do tend to have the view that their ways are the best ways, even if it only applies to their group. The AFA is not different, and I have failed to see any time where the AFA went around shouting that Europeans were the Master Race.
…With Judaism, you can actually convert to it. You might have some difficulty being a cultural Jew, because that’s an ethnicity. It’d be like a white man trying to become a sub-Saharan African–skin color and all. Which is the same thing with the indigenous Americans. You can worship their beliefs – what remains of it – but you physically and biologically cannot be an indigenous American. You might be able to marry into the tribe, but that’s about as close as you’re going to get.
He calls it a diatribe, and then proves my point.
If the ethnic lines are indeed so strong…then why is it that when the AFA does it “it’s evil” and when Native Americans do it “the ethnic lines are impossible to truly cross, so it’s okay when they do it.”
Allen is…basically allowing a double standard. He joins with other Heathens screaming at the AFA for saying “ethnicity matters” and then defends the screaming by saying…”It’s ok when Ethnicity matters to these people.”
Nor did HHH necessarily say that the AFA was “wrong” or some sort, but that they (and the undersigned) disagree ideologically and theologically with the AFA, even flat out saying – as you point out – that the AFA is free to believe and stand for whatever it wants. This is not racism, and for you to try and cry it as such is blatantly ridiculous.
Doublethink is ++Good.
Allen puts forth that HHH didn’t exactly say the AFA was “wrong” to believe what they believe (eurocentric hetronormativity). But if the AFA is not “Wrong” then why this sudden, vocal outcry to…ostracize them from the larger Heathen community?
You don’t kick people out, refuse to do business with them, and publicly revile their entire organization for doing “right.”
You do it for doing “Wrong.”
HHH does state that the AFA has the right to believe this things, but that they find them wrong, abhorrent, and not in line with “True Heathenism” and so deny them goods, services, and respect.
Now, Allen states that my finding this racist is blatantly ridiculous. Except…it’s not.
As Allen and I both pointed out, there are ethnocentric groups out there in the world: Jews, Native Americans, etc. Both Allen and I state that membership is limited in these tribes to those of the ethnicity (with Jews allowing for conversion). But, despite the fact that say Jews are both judeocentric in their ethnicity (you absolutely must convert or they won’t let you in) and heteronormative…HHH and the other Universalists are not making declarations against the Jews. Or any Native American tribe that is tribalcentric and hetronormative.
They’re only doing it to the AFA. And time and again, one of the justifications, including in Allen’s comment, is that they are “white supremacists.” But, if we remove the obvious wordplay that is the meaninglessness of “Supremacist” the true nature becomes apparent. “Because they are White.”
As I attempted to point out in my previous post, the song Traditions from Fiddler on the Roof is…as ethno-centric and heteronormative as what the AFA’s chief Gothi said. Except instead of being a few paragraphs it’s a good seven minute song/part of the play. Men should be men, women should be women, traditional gender roles, and the separation of ethnic groups being proper.
Racism is the action of having two or more standards of behavior for people on the basis of ethnicity/race. IF it is acceptable for a Jew to say “we like our men to be men, our women to be women, and our children to be Jews,” and it is acceptable for the Native American to say: “We like our men to be men, our women to be women, and our children to be Native Americans,” Then it must also be acceptable for a white person to say “We like our men to be men, our women to be women, and our children to be white.”
But HHH And Declaration 127 is all about saying “Jews can say this, Native Americans can say this, but if a White Person says this, then they are to be excommunicated from our religion!”
THAT IS FUNDAMENTAL RACISM AT ITS FINEST!!!!
Now, I am perfectly willing to take back saying that HHH and the other signers of D127 are racists if they will all proceed to issue more declarations of this kind decrying Jews, Blacks, Asians, Native American, Muslims, and any other group who holds these beliefs that “men should be men, women should be women, we like our families traditional and our children of our people.”
Because until they hold every ethnic and religious group to the same standard they are holding the AFA, they are being racist on the basis of ethnicity towards the AFA and saying that it is wrong for them to hold this position, but acceptable for everyone else to, based on ethnicity alone.
Yes, the AFA is free to keep their Kindreds lilly-white. They’re free to keep their “bloodlines pure” – ironically worshiping a slew of half-breed Gods all the while, as I’m sure you know – and their marriages heterosexual.
Well, given that the Gods were hetero-normative in their marriages I’m glad to see that we’re at least flipping sides of the coin here based on faction. The “folkish” are all about being “Ethnically pure” with “half-breed gods” and the Universalists are all about being “homonormative” with a bunch of Heteronormative Gods.
Congrats, you’re failing just as badly as the folkish when it comes to religious logic then.
Still, I would like to point out that as far as “half breeding” goes, the Gods were born from Jotuns and then became Gods, so when they go and have kids with Jotun women it’s still technically pure bloodlines with their own race. Depending on how you feel divinity effects genetics, I suppose.
I suppose you could argue that the Aesir and the Vanir are different ethnicities, but then so are English and French, but you’ll notice the AFA isn’t whining about that kind of interbreeding either. So…lel.
But the majority of Heathenry does not agree with them. We do not recognize phenotype superiority, do not ascribe to white supremacism, and uphold that anyone can and is welcome to be a Heathen, and worship the Gods of many Tribes that we worship.
If we’re talking membership, the AFA is supposedly a third again larger than the Troth, which is the largest universal organization. Given that most groups are significantly smaller than those two, yes one could say the majority of heathen organizations do not agree with the AFA…but that’s not the same as saying the majority of the faithful do not agree.
Frankly, if we were to tally it all up…I might place the majority as agreeing with the AFA. IF we did a census of all Heathens, universal, folkish, or unaligned like myself, and sat down to count them…I am not so sure of a Universalist victory. The AFA does have its issues and it is by no means a perfect organization and that does keep some people who agree with them on as much as 90% of their positions from joining in. Plus, there’s probably a large number of people who would happily join the AFA…but fear the real life consequences brought about by both their fellow Heathens in the universalist camp as well as the actions of “anti-fascists/anti-racists” who are all to willing and eager to destroy people’s lives for the crimes of “wrong think.”
Since this is truly a political issue as much as it is a religious one…let’s look at politics. Donald Trump swept the presidential nomination of the Republican Party…despite standing for a shit ton of things the Reps don’t traditionally stand for…but that people traditionally do. He is presently keeping pace and occasionally surpassing Clinton, a candidate who was literally handed her nomination and has the full support of both mainstream and social media, along with a whole host of other allies. Millions and millions of people have swarmed to him, pushing him by dent of will to keep up with someone who the entire machine is dedicated to getting elected.
Why is that?
Because before Trump, a lot of people were scared. They were scared to say what they really believed, what they really thought, how they really felt watching their world and their traditions being eaten away a chunk at a time, watching their people be slandered and reviled. And, to be honest…I think it’s the same way in Heathenism.
Yes, we are a religion that prides itself on bravery, but at the end of the day it’s one thing to be brave in the face of armies and dragons…and quite another to be brave in the face of being beaten to death, or loosing your job, your friends, and your family. There’s a lot of Heathens “in the closet” about their faith, and about some of the things they believe because of their faith.
In this world, it’s easy to be a Universality Heathen. You’re saying all the right things, living by all the right virtues, but as I pointed out above…Universalists are pushing what could be considered “homonormativity” in a religion where the Gods are explicitly “heteronormative.” I mean, the singular example I only ever get when it comes to homo-sexuality and trans-sexuality among the divine is Loki…and that’s from when he turned into a horse, got pregnant, and had Slepnir.
Some how, though, this isn’t seen as an example of Otherkin or Bestiality being acceptable in the faith. Despite being a much, much better example for those behaviors.
It’s not the same when you’re closer to the “folkish” or “traditionalist” side of things. Those views are “verboten” in society, and you can lose everything for stating them. Millions have.
There IS no support for the AFA’s views in anything about Heathenry. It is not a core tenant of belief, nor is it found anywhere in the lore. It is absent from Norse history. It is defied by Norse history, and indeed defied by the nature of our very Gods. Thor is half jotun. The Aesir and Vanir married to jotnar. None of the Gods that we as Heathens worship have “pure” bloodlines.
I guess to Allen, ethnicity means nothing.
Well, except maybe when it comes to Jews, Native Americans, Latinos, etc. Judging by what he’s said. That or Allen is perfectly fine with say, all native american tribes just going extinct?
Look, there’s a big debate about if the Folkish viewpoint is supported in the Lore. The Folkish say yes, because of course they would. The Universalists say no, because of course they would too. After all, if it was clearly one way or another in the lore, there would be no argument and the other side would have to capitulate.
So let’s take the lore out of it…which is what I did.
Self preservation and self determination are universal human rights. European peoples have a right to preserve their european ethnicity and the right to determine what that ethnic group believes. The Folkish of the AFA are invoking that right.
And Declaration 127 is all about the Universalists saying “you have that ‘right,’ but you are evil people for invoking it and we shun you and shit on your people for doing so. To us, the preservation of your people is a hate crime, one we do not support and one we demand be removed from our faith. The rights and even the existence of your people is a shame too great to endure and we will take any position we need to in order to let everyone know that we do not accept, condone, or support, the preservation of your people’s ethnicity.”
As with the AFA, you are free to hold your views as you will. But I find your views as ridiculous as theirs.
What is the AFA’s view?
“We have the universal rights of self-preservation and self-determination.”
What is my view?
“All people, regardless of race or ethnicity, have the universal rights of self-preservation and self-determination.”
What is the view of Allen Reeves, HHH, and Declaration 127 and its supporters?
“The views of the AFA and Lucius Svartwulf Helsen are ridiculous.”
I suppose that really says it all right there.