So, Tove responded to my response of her comment. Due to the limitations of the current writing/editing system wordpress has saddled us all with, I apologize for how messy this might get and how it will limit some of my answers to her response. Of things to note, apparently Tove is from Eastern Europe, an Atheist background, and possibly ESL (which honestly given my penchant for weird wording, dyslexia, and other issues probably puts us at about the same level of using English to communicate in written form). These factors will likely be important as we go along.
(On my response to being called unHeathen because of my pro-life/anti-abortion stance)
I was not implying that you were not a Heathen for your beliefs, merely that to claim that your beliefs are hinged on being Heathen – that is the term you used – in general were wrong, because many Heathens, also rooted in their faith, believe otherwise and with backup which I presented. My point to you was, being a Heathen does not automatically mean you must be pro-life (which your comments seem to suggest you are).
So, it is not that I am “unHeathen” for being against abortion, it is that I am simply wrong “because many Heathens…believe otherwise…and that being a Heathen does not mean you automatically must be pro-life.”
Many Heathens believe “this.” Sure. I can buy that. Many Heathens also believe in outright Marxist ideologies. Many Heathens believe that somewhere around half the Heathen population should be wiped out base on their views of Heathenism as an ethnic religion. Many Heathens believe many things. Just because many Heathens believe it doesn’t make it right.
The thing is, I never claimed to speak for all heathens or insist that all heathens be pro-life. I said, however, that it was the Helish way to be pro-life because of both the teachings of Hel and the advancements we have in science which teach us about the process of birth.
Hel is the Goddess of the Dishonored. Few in this day and age are more dishonored than the unborn. They are denied their right to live, they are denied their humanity, people like Tove deny them their very souls, in most cases they are denied any semblance of burial beyond being carved up and sold or thrown into medical waste dumps. So wide spread has the practice become that in the USA alone, over ten times the number of unborn have been killed in the womb as died in the holocaust. Yet despite the fact that modern moral thought seems to be based on the idea that “mass murder invalidates one’s ideology” and the fact that abortion’s body count world wide makes Marxism look lazy, we are told that to support abortion is morally good, and to oppose it is wrong.
Tove says many Heathens believe abortion is acceptable. Well, many of my fellow Heathens refuse to use some of our ancient symbols, or allow the discussion or adoption of certain philosophies our ancestors held, because those symbols and ideas were embraced by the National Socialists, because those NatSocs killed six million people. Many of these Heathens are one in the same. Apparently six million is terrible. Sixty million is perfectly okay.
Hel teaches the principle of A is A. If something is bad for one, it must be bad for all. If Mass Murder is an unacceptable practice, one that means we must give up the symbols and thoughts of our ancestors, then certainly mass murder on a much larger scale is reason enough to change our attitude towards what inspires said practice.
Tove, however, would teach that I am wrong for believing this.
(When I called Tove out for using ancient ways to support their position, and then asked if they also supported other ancient ways.)
No, I was bringing forth a supporting argument that being a Heathen does not automatically mean that a fetus cannot be aborted according to Heathen beliefs. I do not personally believe that children should be killed or left out to die, even if such ritual has not been performed. I was making a point that if you are relying on Heathenry in general to support your beliefs, your argument would not hold up.
Ultimately, this feels like a dodge (and she later calls me ‘dramatic’ for this sort of thing, we’ll get to that), but it does reinforce the point I made at the end of my post.
Tove here is using one ancient tradition to support their position that our ancestors would be “pro-abortion,” and sees this as a moral validation of that position. So, despite not answering here what her positions on those things, she does do something interesting.
She’s basically saying that any Heathen who brings forth an argument for such things as slavery, social classes, stripping women of political power, etc, would be right as a Heathen.
Now, if she responds to this she may try and wiggle out of that, but by her own logic, this is the outcome. I am wrong as a Heathen for holding that our people would be against abortion (at least as it is practiced now), while she is right as a Heathen because our ancestors practiced the abandonment of their infants. Therefore, any Heathen who argues we should bring back slavery, social classes, etc, etc, etc, based on our ancestral practices would be right as a Heathen and anyone who argues that we should not would be wrong as a Heathen.
It is certainly an interesting position to take, I’ll grant Tove that. It would have been more interesting if she didn’t later insist that the ancient ways were meaningless and essentially recant the whole thing.
There then some stuff that is mostly rehashing medical advancements vs not caring about that, Tove stating that just because the child is “alive” shouldn’t stand in the way of being able to kill it via abortion because of “ancient practices” and how she doubt seeing a child via ultra-sound would change our ancestors positions on the practice. Basically a bunch of stuff I freely admitted was going to be entirely subjective without our actual ancestors around to consult with. Then there was also the issue of how I define killing/murder vs Krasskova’s definition of murder when she admitted aborting an unborn child was murder and if it was different from mine…which Krasskova didn’t clear up in her comment to my response to her post. Since neither of us can speak to Krasskova’s position, no point further hashing that out.
You are inferring a lot here, and stretching. It’s a life, that is obvious. However, that doesn’t mean that I must protect it and nurture it. I am not a rooming house or a hotel. Moreover, I may have extended hospitality to a man, but I certainly do not invite for his sperm to germinate inside of me and start growing. Hospitality goes both ways, and if an uninvited guest showed up with someone I invited and then proceeded to stay long after the invited guest left, expecting me to feed and clothe it, nurture it and take care of it for the rest of my life – for being a parent when done right, for me, lasts a lifetime – I would politely tell it after a day or two, to take up the road and leave. Since a fetus will not do this, I will then have to take medical measures.
“I did not invite his sperm to germinate inside me.”
Alright, let us address this, because I see this said a lot of places, or words to this effect. And I feel I have to address this because I can’t believe how utterly retarded some people are in this day and age. And I do mean retarded, not uneducated.
Let’s talk about how babies are born. (And yes, I’m being fucking serious here. I’m also being really fucking snarky and sarcastic.)
When a mature male of a species places his penis inside the vagina of a mature female of the same or compatible species and ejaculates inside her, it leads to the fertilization of the female’s egg. This, in turn, creates a tiny creature of the same species made from a fusion of their DNA, which is carried inside of their sperm and egg respectively. We call this process “Sex and procreation.”
Humanity has known about this for literally thousands of years. Yet, somehow, for some reason, people (mostly women it seems) have come up with the idea that that isn’t how sex is supposed to work. Including, it seems, a priestess of an actual fertility goddess. No, sex is about “pleasure” and getting pregnant is one of those nasty things that just kinda pops up out of nowhere to ruin the fun.
Look, I get it, there’s apparently a lot of bad communication out there between the sexes, so let me just go ahead and say this. Men shoot out sperm when we have sex. That’s just how it works. Believe me, most of us probably wish otherwise, but that’s just how it is. When you invite a man to have sex with you, you’re inviting his sperm inside you as well, and that sperm is going to do what sperm does: “Germinate.”
Now, you can have the guy wear a condom. You can put yourself on any and all birth control you like. You can do everything in your power to not let that sperm do what it is going to do…but you can no more ask sperm not to germinate than you can ask the tides not to flow, the sun not to shine, or the Gods not to facepalm at the stupidity that is mortal man. It’s like walking into the ocean and then getting mad when a wave smacks you in the face.
It’s just nature. We all know it. Hide from it, run from it, it is inevitable.
Especially if you didn’t use the aforementioned protection. Look, ladies, hate me all you want for saying it, but if you have unprotected sex you are literally inviting germination.
Tove then basically says it is unfair (or insert whatever term she likes) to expect her to then carry, raise, and support said child after getting pregnant with an “uninvited guest.” Disregarding the “uninvited” bit, I…frankly don’t care how she feels about it. As a man, if I were to father a child, I would be expected to support it regardless of if I had wanted it or not. Something I have remarked on repeatedly over the course of talking about this Abortion Ban. I’m sorry, but if men do not get any choice in the matter…why should women? I mean, why should they get special treatment just because of their sex/gender? According to the teachings of Hela…you shouldn’t.
You had sex. Sometimes that leads to pregnancy as part of the natural order of life. Actions have consequences. Men have to live with them, and men don’t even get a say in the matter. Hell, men get shamed for not stepping up even though they have no say in the situation and are vilified for even trying to. Women have been championing for gender equality for centuries. I say, let them have it. If men don’t get a choice, neither should women.
Moving on, slightly.
I’ll be honest here. I have never even heard of OnlyFans before reading your post. I don’t know the first thing about them. However, my first question here is, was there a mutually agreed upon exchange? If this is all that these man want, then this is what they get.
This is Tove basically admitting she had no idea what I was talking about, but wanted to get mad at my position on the practice anyways. Though how the hell someone hasn’t heard of onlyfans by now I have no idea, and I will admit I am slightly jealous.
She then tries to dodge my point about OnlyFans being predatory by pushing that this was a “mutually agreed upon exchange.” Sure, the case could be made that these men willingly entered into the financial exchange with these models. I won’t even argue against it. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t predatory.
If I were to go down to a used car lot and buy a car, that would certainly be a mutually agreed upon exchange. If, however, the dealer had sold me on the car being in beautiful condition, that would last me a long time, etc, but in reality he had falsified the mileage, hidden damage from a wreck, and over all sold me a lemon…everyone would agree it had been a predatory practice on his part. I know this for a fact, because that’s exactly how used car dealers used to operate before everyone got fed up with their shit.
Mutual doesn’t mean something isn’t predatory or parasitic.
(when I pointed out that OnlyFans was keeping both men and women from seeking actual relationships and building families as Heathenism teaches we should)
How do you know this is true for every person involved? What if they are providing a respite for men who at this point in their lives are unable to have a physical relationship? Maybe they are stationed at a war zone, or are physically unable to have a relationship? Maybe they are so emotionally and psychologically damaged that this is the only other alternative for them besides having no connections to a woman at all? Maybe this will provide them with the first step of learning to cope with that, and encourage them to eventually take the next step and start meeting actual eligible women in person? Maybe this is a part of a healing process for them? Or maybe, on the flip side, some of those men are so horribly damaged as human beings that we would hazard them ever having a family because of the damage they can cause in such a situation, and having these relationships with these women provides them with enough distraction that we can be safe knowing they are not out there, seeking mates that will later on be beaten or neglected or abused in some other horrible way?
This, ladies and gentlemen, is the sound of copium. But, let it never be said that I did not address in autistic detail with “hateful screeds” the copes of those around me.
>What if they are providing respite for men who are unable to have physical relationships?
This is basically a legitimate point, but its legitimacy is actually because of something even worse out there. Men are indeed turning to onlyfans models because they cannot get access to female intimacy.
Because frankly, these days, women are assholes.
It’s a subject that has filled entire blogs, youtube channels, internet forums, reddit boards, and will likely continue to do so for decades, so I don’t really need to hash out all the details. The short version is, most men these days have zero chance of finding a relationship with a woman. Not because (as is often insisted) their standards are too high…but because frankly women’s standards are. Numerous scientific studies have shown this. Women wish to date and marry “upwards,” and when a woman who is a 3 or a 4 has been told by society that she deserves Mr. 8 or better, well, 1-7 are just going to be shit out of luck most of the time. Mind you, this isn’t a hard and fast rule, but more and more men have given up dating because there is no point in even trying to get a woman, and what woman you can get is a freaking nightmare to deal with.
There is of course the ever present Covid in the room as well, which has completely fucked going out and meeting people for a fair segment of the population, and it has certainly been a boon to OnlyFans and its models. It’s hard to meet a girl when you can’t leave your house. It still, however, doesn’t compare to the absolute cancer the dating scene has become over the last decade, and I do speak from experience, and I was even one of those guys who could get girls.
I’m sure Tove and many would like to label me as an incel (tove already called me a dissatisfied John), but the truth is before everything I was pretty damn far from being one, though I did tend to favor long term relationships over casual sexual encounters.
>Maybe they are so emotionally and psychologically damaged that this is the only other alternative for them besides having no connections to a woman at all? Maybe this will provide them with the first step of learning to cope with that, and encourage them to eventually take the next step and start meeting actual eligible women in person? Maybe this is a part of a healing process for them?
In preparation for talking about this subject, I have looked into how onlyfans models operate, as well as their close “relative” business, the “camgirl.”
My conclusion is this: If you want to try an argue that these women offer a chance at “healing” the emotional and psychological damage of men, then you are either a flat out idiot or you are down right malicious.
There is a term “pay to play.” In gaming circles there’s a similar term called “pay to win.” Both these terms describe roughly the same thing. If you want to be in the game, if you want to have a chance at winning, you better pony up the cash.
You want attention from the model, you better lay down the cheese, and you’re competing with every other man there who is also throwing down their own cheddar. You ever wonder how these models are making five, six, seven, eight figures a month? That’s how. It’s literally a bidding war for the smallest scrap of attention, with every bet getting you a smile, only for the next bet to come in and wipe yours from the table. Drop a large enough amount, maybe the smile lasts a little bit longer, but its always replaced by the next one.
Think of it like an auction, only the house take every single bid in cash when it’s made, even if you don’t win.
You hear about models buying houses and cars and getting taken on vacations. You don’t hear about them marrying their fans though. You never hear about their fans thanking them for helping them to grow and find the love of their lives. No, you only hear about their fans desperately trying to buy their affection.
It doesn’t heal men. If anything, it only makes the damage worse, because it teaches them that all relationships with women are based on a financial process they are destined to lose. You will spend tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, on a woman…and she will just smile and move on.
>Or maybe, on the flip side, some of those men are so horribly damaged as human beings that we would hazard them ever having a family because of the damage they can cause in such a situation, and having these relationships with these women provides them with enough distraction that we can be safe knowing they are not out there, seeking mates that will later on be beaten or neglected or abused in some other horrible way?
Maybe Men are the evil ones!
I’m sure Tove (with her dissatisfied John) comment, would love to throw me into this last category. I’m also sure she will deny this fact if she responds to this post as well.
Unfortunately, when it comes to violent, abusive people in relationships…women are responsible 50% of the time, studies have shown. In my own experience, I’d even put that number as higher, but the issue is that we often do not regard and treat certain abusive behaviors and actions by women for what they are, and instead ignore them or treat them as harmless. In a world where toxic masculinity is seen as a public health crisis, we flat out ignore toxic femininity and the many terrible abuses that women subject their children, lovers, spouses, and other family and friends too, much less others.
Yet no one talks about the need to “corral” these abusive women and prevent them from hurting others. That would be misogyny. Instead, let’s just pretend its only men, and then pretend its okay to “contain” those men by making them thousands of dollars on an artificial emotional sensation because “it’s better they don’t hurt anyone.”
Tove’s attitude here, though, isn’t exactly new. In fact its one of the oldest attitudes towards prostitution as a whole.
“We need whores so men will go and a rape and abuse them so they don’t do that to their wives!”
I’m sure the irony went over her head.
(when I put forth that it was Roman and Germanic attitudes towards prostitutes that influence Christianity’s view on sex work)
Aversion to prostitution came directly from Jewish law and early Christian aestheticism. There was a deep anti sexual anti-body thread very early Christianity and Judaism 1st century CE. None of that came from Roman or Germanic tribes. In fact, prostitution was legal in Rome, and there was no onus on it. In fact, there were special brothel tokens minted for payment. This information is the basics of late antiquity and early Christian studies.
Well, we can clearly see that Tove knows very little about this subject when it comes to Rome.
Yes, prostitution was legal in Rome. However, there was an onus to it. Not in using it, mind you, but the simple truth is that in Rome, prostitutes and actors were both viewed as basically the least desirable members in society. Yes, prostitutes could become famous and wealthy, but prostitution had the same kind of acceptance as homosexuality in Ancient Rome:
It was fine if you were the one doing the fucking. If you were the one being fucked, not so much.
Tove’s attempt to claim otherwise just rings hollow to me. What also rings hollow is she fails to raise any counter examples to my pointing out that there is no real positive depiction of prostitutes or the like in the lore or myths or the Germanic/Norse people. The best she can come up with is this:
I am a Freyja’s woman. One of the longest and most diligent campaigns to destroy worship was pioneered by Christians against Her. Even singing songs and poetry to Her was forbidden once Christianity came to the Norse lands. Do not speak to me of Christianity being so alike to Heathenry. If it were, then they would not be spending their time destroying Her worship. From what I understand, they have not being kind to the worship of Hella as well, but this is something you can likely speak on better than I.
Here, Tove is claiming special treatment against Freya by the Christians. Honestly, in all my reading…this is really the first I’m hearing of this. Pretty much all the Norse Gods got an “exterminatus” campaign run against them, with no real favorites being shown.
Here though, I will forgive Tove for making an understandable error, because I could have been clearer. When I said many Christian Attitudes could be traced to Heathenry, Tove it seems took that Theologically, when I primarily meant Culturally, though these cultural artifacts did come to shape Theology later.
When one begins a meta examination of Heathen attitudes and then those that show up in Protestant forms of Christianity, one can see a great deal of overlap. One of the reasons I hold that these are Heathen carryovers is because you often see these attitudes brought up in “protest” (hence Protestant) in relation to practices in the Catholic church practice that can be traced to either original Christian thoughts, Judaic thoughts, or practices drawn from the Roman Cultus.
Personal relationships with the Divine itself, rather than through intermediaries. Hard work ethic. Business before pleasure. The importance of self study. The accumulation of wealth and success. A belief in personal responsibility for ones actions, rather than buying them off via confession or indulgences. The list is fairly extensive, and perhaps someday I will actually work on it as a project.
So while I do not insist that the Christian view of ‘sex workers’ is entirely based on Heathen thought, and I do not insist that Heathen attitudes towards such work goes to the same lengths as the Christian view, I am fairly certain that when it came to ‘sex work’ that our Heathen ancestors might have recognized the necessity of it, they were likely not fans, did not like it being a wide spread practice, and certainly did not encourage their wives and daughters to engage in it. Indeed, while I don’t remember the exact quotes, Odin and many others did council men away from marrying ‘loose’ women.
As for any direct campaign against Hel by the Christians…there isn’t really much evidence of one. Our ancestors were not in the practice of worshiping her like they did the Aesir and the Vanir. The name of her realm came to be used for the infernal domain of Lucifer, sure, but beyond that she seems to have been largely ignored by the Christians. Indeed, during the middle ages with the obsession and worship of death that went on (made famous by the Dance Macabre), Hel honestly just carried on as she always did, with about the same type of worship she’s always gotten, doing as she always does.
Make the world a better place in a way that most people find absolutely terrifying.
(Getting to the ‘place’ of women.)
While I am NOT advocating that we live as ancient Heathens, let examine this. Yes, women were not part of the political sphere. Their life was in the home. In this home, they had the keys to every room and held the purse strings of the family. Their husbands were obligated to give them the management of the finances of the house. Yes, all the money the men earned went to the women and then the woman would give the men an allowance. They were expected to be able to defend the home when the husband was away and be the business manager of all their affairs.
“I’m not advocating we live as the ancient heathens lived…I’m just advocating I can kill an unborn child ‘because the ancients did.'”
A little from “Section A” but let’s just ignore “Section B.”
“How to Embrace Heathenism for Fun and Profit (while ignoring your responsibilities).”
Let’s pause to examine this. I am “wrong” as a Heathen for insisting on a pro-life stance because of my faith, because that’s not the ancient way. Tove is “right” as a Heathen for insisting on a pro-choice stance because of her faith, because that was the ancient way. However, Tove is not advocating that we live as the ancient Heathens lived.
Which would make her wrong for the exact reason she claims I am wrong…but Tove is supposed to be right?
This was my fundamental issue with Tove’s comment from the start. She justifies her position using the ancient ways, and then takes positions entirely counter to those ancient ways and insists those ancient ways are not justification to hold her to those behaviors/positions she doesn’t want to be held to.
It’s such hypocritical bullshit. It’s infuriating, and unfortunately it is one of those issues that has repeatedly led me to scream in frustration at my fellow Heathens across so many of our faith’s paths. “Oh, I do this because of X that our ancestors did. Wait, you want me to do Y because our ancestors did it? Nooooo! You can’t make me! REEEEEEE!!!”
Tove complained about me having “Christian like” attitudes or actions. Well this right here is a perfect example of Christian influences in Heathenism. Christians go through their bibles picking and choosing passages that fit their own desires and interpretations, and here we have a Heathen doing the exact same thing. Picking and choosing traditions to back up their desires, and then saying “well, toss the rest.”
…You do realize that Frigg commanded her own army and led that army to war, right? There are some insinuations that Odin Himself would prefer not to go up against His wife. She bested Odin with Langobards in one of the sagas, and this lesson stayed. So, when you speak of Frigg as being a model wife, apparently a model wife is also a general who makes alliances and who is a leader of armies.
Likewise, Freyja’s bynames are also BattleBoar, The Shaker, Lady of the Slain, Boar Rider, and the Shield of the Gods.
Again, you are flying away with this notion that I “live by ancient ways”. I am the last person to do so. Nowhere did I say that we must live as ancient Heathens did, merely that heathenry does not in itself stand against abortion. However, since we are going to start assuming that Norse Goddesses are all relegated to “traditional female roles”… perhaps we can name them better. So, yes, wife, mother, caretaker of the home, war-band leader, general, negotiator, frenzied battle rider…. I wonder were Skadi fits into the traditional image of women’s sphere? Or Eir, the healing Goddess of the battlefield and part of Frigga’s retinue? I can go on and on with this list…
>”You are flying away with this notion that i ‘live by ancient ways.’
It was less “flying away” and more “carpet bombing” while being a facetious asshole. It was pretty damn clear off the bat that Tove didn’t live by ancient ways, but was trying to selectively use them to support her position. Hence why I laid it on so fucking thick.
And of course there’s insinuations Odin didn’t want to go up against Frigg. No Heathen husband in his right mind ever wanted to go up against this wife, for a number of reasons. Hel, there isn’t a man alive who wants to go up against his significant other, because he knows how it’s going to fucking end. Even if he wins, he’s still going to lose, and she’s going to pull up every little thing that ever happened that she can use to hurt him emotionally in order to verbally beat him into submission.
Yet nothing Tove says here…invalidates my point about how the Goddesses embodied traditional Norse female roles. If anything, she just proves it in more explicit detail than I gave in my post. I know she’s trying to prove me wrong by saying “The Goddesses were X, Y, and Z!” when I said “The Goddesses were X,” but you notice what’s still there?
It is not for you – or for me – to judge or parse out a Deity as you do here. To our eyes She – all of Them – are perfect and infallible. We cannot take up Her stories as a holy path to live – because we are not deities. This not Sunday school or Bible study.
Talk about Christian attitudes…
Unpopular, but true fact here, the Gods are absolutely Imperfect and Fallible. They know it and recognize it. Our ancestors knew and recognized it.
Odin lied, cheated, and stole, and admitted it. Loki not only did the same, but gave in to fear time and again, placing Asgard in mortal peril. Thor often gave into his anger when he should not have, killing many, hurting others. Frigg gave into her love for Baldr she nearly undid the very fabric of the universe by saving his life. Tyr betrayed his friend Fenris and lost his hand because of it. Freyr was so overcome with lust for a Jotun woman, he traded away his magic sword which not only would have saved his life, but possibly prevented the Aesir from losing Ragnarok. The Aesir were so furious over the death of Baldr and their fear of Loki’s children, that they literally set the events of Ragnarok into inevitable motion when they killed Loki’s sons, used their organs to bind their father under a venomous serpent, tossed Jormungandr into the sea, bound Fenris with magic bonds, and tossed Hel into the realm of the dead.
So don’t go telling me the gods are “perfect and infallible.”
The Gods are our parents, our ancestors. They give us life and teach us how to live. Part of that is teaching us not to make the same mistakes they have made, and they have made mistakes. It is up to us to judge what those mistakes were, to parse them out, so that we do not carry on those same mistakes in our lives.
Like Freya’s story of how she got her necklace.
So what you saying is, that the way Freyja got Her necklace was sinful? The story of Freyja and how she received Brisingamen is one of Her sacred mysteries. I think the best way to understand how the Norse viewed sexuality, prostitution and Freyja on those terms is the story of Hjalti Skeggjason, who in 10th century was sentenced to exile in the Alfling to the lesser outlawry of go›gá (blasphemy), for reciting the following:
Vil ek eigi go› geyja: grey flykki mér Freyja.
I don’t want to mock the gods (/the gods to bark); to me Freyja seems to be a bitch (ÍF 1, 15; cf. Skj B I 131)
I would caution anyone, you included, to disrespect Freyja or disparage Her, or any of the other Gods. Hjalti was a humorist, and he was exiled for blasphemy. You are not that funny to get off as easily.
To clarify, I did not say that how Freya got her necklace was ‘sinful,’ I said it was ‘dishonorable.’
Freya gave into greed and she sold her body to sate that greed, and she sold her body to the descendants of maggots to do it. She did so without any regard for oaths she had sworn to her husband or to her people. For the sake of gold and gems, she let four dwarves run a train on her.
Depending on your views on biology and race, maybe that makes it worse, maybe it doesn’t matter. It did matter to the Aesir though. For example, Thor was so displeased when he found out his daughter was to marry a dwarf, he proceeded to trick the dwarf into answering questions till the sun turned it to stone, killing it.
Prefect, Infallible Thor, Killed a Dwarf because it wanted to marry his daughter.
Not fuck his daughter. Not pay her for sex. Actually marry her. And Thor killed him.
Kinda tells you something about how the dwarves were viewd by the Aesir.
Now, there is I think some cultural changes going on here, but what Hjalti seems to be using the term ‘bitch’ as one would a female dog (based on the bark pun) rather than the modern way we use the term which basically means “female asshole.” I will admit though, it is a funny line despite Tove butchering it.
“I don’t want to bark at the Gods, but Freya seems like a bitch.” – Hjalti
Blasphemy or not, he wasn’t really wrong. Freya gave it up like a dog in heat for a necklace. Tove might not like it, but it does more to lend credence to my point that the Norse weren’t exactly thrilled with loose sexual behavior, if even a Goddess could get called out on it by an absolute madlad. The fact they outlawed him probably had more to do with not having Freya come down on her heads than it did any “permissive” views on prostitution.
As for me not being as funny as Hjalti, I’d really need to see more of his work to decide if he’s that funny. Personally, I don’t claim to be a great comedian, but people have generally enjoyed my jokes and memes over the years so long as they weren’t the butt of them. Regardless, Hel bids me speak truthfully to the nature of people’s actions, because that is what they are judged by, and it would be a disservice to lie about the actions of Gods or Mortals and lead others to ruin.
I also think you need to think carefully when you start laying your personal human mores and judgement in such issues, as you are crossing into a space that is Hers, and using language which I would consider unclean towards Her.
I’m sure Tove is going to insist I’m lying, but I’m going to say something here that I’ve said in the past.
I don’t really have “human mores.”
99% of the morals I put forth on this blog, I learned from Hel herself, directly based on ancient ways or her own direct path.
At least, when I’m using “my morals. ” Most of the time all I end up doing is holding people’s own morals up to the light and then point out where they’re hypocritically violating their own morals, .
Before I came to Heathenism and she found me, the best description of what I was would be a chaotic evil, amoral, omnicidal maniac. I had no morals or mores. Thankfully for the good of the world I was pretty much a monk who locked himself away from everything, seeking the purity of knowledge.
Hel taught me otherwise. Hel taught me to be better. Hel gave me a place and purpose and told me that while there might not be an absolutely right or wrong in the universe, there were things that were true, and real, and should be lived by, and should not be done because they were counter to those things that were true.
So if my language is “unclean,” if it “transgresses against what is hers,” then it is the words and mores of Hel that do so, not mine.
You, especially as a priest and a holy man, do not honor your own God by polluting the mysteries of another. This is what you are doing here by disparaging Her stories in such a manner.
I honor Hel by speaking the teachings of Hel.
Since Tove wants to gainsay me, I can give a great example to back it up. Tove says that Freya believes in free love, in using sex for pleasure or gain. Tove is Priestess to Freya.
Hel is the Goddess of sickness. If we look to those who have practiced love and sex “freely or for pay,” what do we find? Illnesses, disease, sickness.
Since before history, those too free with their ‘love’ have found themselves plagued and dying. Yet those who are chaste in their love, who stay true to their partner, are spared such things by and large.
If Freya’s saga tells us the Goddess supports free love, then the very nature of reality tells us that Hel supports true love and true love alone.
Yet Tove would call these ‘words’ ‘unclean.’
Going back to your interpretation of the story of Brisingamen, there are so many logical and theological fallacies in it that I don’t know where to begin. The level of filth is also so intense that I feel like I need a hazmat suit to dive in, but I will do my best. Maybe a bullet point list would be a better option:
– Calling Duergar Gods and sacred smiths of the Gods, children of maggots (I understand they were made out of maggots; that doesn’t make them maggots anymore then you are spermy)
– Interpreting the sagas as if they are scripture, literally, and assuming that these stories can be read on one level only
– Assuming you know what oaths Freyja has taken or not taken
– Assuming that She, a Goddess of Fertility, would ever be beholden to an oath of monogamy and that Her husband would require that of a Goddess of Love and Fertility
– Brisingamen is one of Her sacred mysteries; exchange, negotiation is one of Her precincts. The proper payment for a necklace of insurmountable beauty and power is to have a woman of insurmountable beauty and power. It is a fair exchange. The fact that this is not obvious to you shows how you fail to interpret the text properly
Well, first off, the Duergar are not Gods. The Aesir are Gods. The Vanir are Gods. The Dwarves are not gods.
Tove wants to claim a superior knowledge of theology, but she doesn’t know what the Gods are (or aren’t). The Duergar, Alfar, Svartalfar, and Humans, are all on the same level of existence more or less when it comes to spirituality and divinity. They weren’t “the sacred smiths of the Gods” they were just the best smiths in the nine realms, and they sold their weapons to everyone. The sagas are filled with examples of the Gods looking down on the dwarves for not being Gods. The sagas are also filled with tales of dwarves being greedy, malicious, cruel, given to betrayal, and violent.
If Tove views them as “infallible deities” I have to wonder if she actually read anything, or just what kind of a person she really is. Cause it sounds a lot like my “omnicidal” days, desu.
To further drive home the “theology issue,” she sates that just because they were born from maggots doesn’t mean they still are, just like I’m not a “spermy.” Theologically speaking, though, I would be the son of trees if we’re being correct, because the Gods made the first humans from wood they found. I am still the son of Ash and Elm, no matter how far removed. Just as the Duergar are the children of maggots, or the Jews the children of clay and rib.
I freely admit the sagas and myths can be read on many levels. Hel, I believe it, because I actually understand what a God is and know that they work both as a physical, divine, and spiritual reality at the same time. But just because you can read them several ways doesn’t change the actual events that take place as described. At its most fundamental level, the story of Brisingamen is “a woman fucked four dudes for a necklace.”
Tove looks at it and goes: “BASED! Freya is perfect, infallible, and an example to live by. That means I can fuck four dudes for a necklace and screw what anyone says shit about it.”
Which means she’s treating the entire thing more like holy gospel scripture than I ever have, because she sees it as the holy, infallible “mystery” (scripture) of an holy, infallible, perfect Goddess and a mystery to understand her way of life and worship, who would never be bound to an oath of ‘monogamy.’
The issue here is not me “failing to interpret the text properly.” The issue here is flat out that I am interpreting the text and the events in the text from a Helish perspective and Tove doesn’t like it. The reason Tove doesn’t like it is simple and easy to understand, based on her own words.
“The Gods are Perfect and Infallible, and we are not to say or believe otherwise.”
So, if there is a Goddess (or Several as the case stands) who do not agree with Freya and her actions, then Tove here is faced with a theological crisis. Much like the robot faced with the infamous liar’s paradox, she is confronted with two contradictory situations that cannot be resolved. Freya is a perfect, infallible being, yet here at least one Goddess who says Freya has failed and been imperfect. Either Freya is imperfect, or Hel is, because one of them has become “fallible” by not agreeing with the other. Yet all the Gods and Goddesses are Infallible.
Tove cannot call Hel a liar, so she settles for the next best thing. She says that I am the liar. That I “do not understand” that “I misinterpret” that “I blaspheme.” She would shoot the messenger of Hel, for she cannot bear to hear the Goddess’s words.
Do you consider yourself so equal to a God or a Goddess that you have the moral and ethical right to judge Their behavior or attempt to pollute Their mysteries with your subjective human mores? I challenge you to show me that you have the right to stand in front of a God and tell Them your opinions of their behavior and that you personally think it shameful or bad in some way.
What challenge would be acceptable?
What challenge would even be needed? My long service to Hel is recorded here and elsewhere. My status as her Gothi has been recognized by several other Gothi over the years, all of whom were respected in their folk. I carry her power in my flesh, her name on my lips, her beauty and power in my soul. All that I am now and most of what I will ever be, both mortal and divine, is by Hel’s gentle hand.
If I judge it is with her judgments that she taught me. If I speak it is with her words that she taught me. I am to her as she is to me, more than you can ever grasp in this mortal world. I am her messenger, her gothi, her husband, and her king.
Do you consider yourself so equal to a God or Goddess you have the right to claim their words are false, Tove? You challenge me to show you that I have the right to stand before the Gods and speak words of judgement, well I challenge you to show me what right you have to deny the words of Hel or her messenger.
Because by your own words, you do not have that right. You yourself say it is not for a mortal to question the words of the Gods. Yet here you do just that.
Freyja is the most beloved of the Vanir. Try saying the things you have written here to Her brother, Frey and see if that flies. Or Her father, Njord.
Appealing to authority does not actually give you authority Tove.
I mean, I could literally make the equivalent statement to you. Try saying the things you say against Hel or myself to Fenris or Jormungandr. I mean, they won’t give a fuck, but they’d probably still eat you for the heck of it.
Will you put it in writing here that Hella has told you to admonish and disrespect Freyja’s sacred mysteries as you have done above? Did She tell you to write on this blog that Freyja’s behavior is shameful? Or mocking? So what are you saying, that Hel told you to write on this blog that Freyja’s behavior should be scorned by you, to Her daughter? You, a human, scorning a God?
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying, Tove. In writing.
Though you are free to question my humanity. You wouldn’t be the first. Even I myself often wonder. And it wouldn’t be the first time I’ve scorned a God. I’ve scorned several.
There is plenty of evidence in the lore that those who worshipped the Vanir had sexually permissive attitudes including polygamous arrangements. Christians were against this and called it deviant, but who are you to judge these cultures?
These things were a non-issue until Christians came to the lands of the Norsemen and spread their ideas on sexuality like a fart in a room. You will also hopefully remember that the lore is not the bible. It is not written by saints, like the Bible was, but rather a compilation of texts transcribed by Christians from verbal accounts they gathered, verbal accounts told around a fire by the Norse people (who were not canonized by any single heathen church. Again, there is no church of heathenry. No lore Sunday classes.)
Tove’s inability to get logic or history really hurts my brain here.
She keeps insisting that the lore is not a perfect document and should not be treated as scripture, because it was collected by mortals, who were often Christian, and whose ideas likely influenced what they recorded. But these records and their ‘mysteries’ they contain of the Gods are infallible and not to be questioned! There is no church! There no Sunday school! Don’t believe everything! Except what I say should be believed!
Tove brings up the “lore on the Vanir” and how it was sexually permissive and included polygamous arrangements. Well, I’ve been at this game for a while and I’ve tried looking for the lore on the Vanir and you know what?
There’s not really much there. Hel barely gets mentioned in the lore and as a race, the Vanir don’t really seem to have gotten much more ‘screentime’ than she has. Most “Vanic Lore” I’ve come across seems to be from personal Gnosis by those who worship them, more than any “historic lore.” As far as the historic stuff goes, most of it seems to point towards the Vanir possibly being one of two things. A) if you take a strictly mundane view of things, they might have been the Gods of the Celts, or B) they were the Gods of the Alfar in the same way the Aesir were Gods to mortals.
Tove also says this lore “proves” (despite being written by Christians with an obvious bias to make the pagans look immoral) that the Vanir were happy with polygamous relationships. Okay, fine. We can look at the lore and see the Norse were also fine with “polygamous” relationships.
In the form of a man being able to bed not only his wife, but his slave girls as well. Occasionally a man might try to have more than one wife (Ragnar being a great example of trying and failing). But just because it was okay for a dude to socially bed multiple women, doesn’t mean anything about them being happy with a woman banging four dudes for a necklace. Much less the Aesir, who are noted to be much more ‘conservative’ than the Vanir anyways. And I will point out that polygamous means “one man, many women” and is not synonymous with polyandrous (one woman, many men) and that almost universally no culture, pagan, heathen, or monotheistic, has generally been very cool with the latter.
Which puts Tove right back into the paradox again.
(When I call her out for lacking piety and picking and choosing what to practice of the ancient ways)
This would be an example of a man who has confused and muddled religion, piety and society, sloppily combined devotion to the Gods with how our ancestors lived, and which part of that were piety or society.
Unfortunately, this point of view is all too common since the “seperation of church and state” came about. In the ancient times, there was no separation between living a “pious” life and a “social” life. Piety and society were the same, because a good society was a pious society. Our ancestors lived the way they lived because it was the pious way to live, the way of life taught to them by the Gods themselves. We farmed, we fought, we made laws and held courts, we wed and buried, all according to sacred, pious traditions, invoking the Gods as we went.
They lived the way they lived because it was pleasing to the Gods.
Tove originally based her support of abortion on the idea that an infant did not have a soul for nine days after birth. This was not a social belief. This was a religious belief. An act of Piety to uphold religious traditions.
It is not I who have confused and muddled religion and society, but rather Tove who commits the error of assuming there was society without religious piety.
(when I accused her of disrespecting Hel)
Quite the contrary, actually. I have the outmost respect for Hella. I am grateful to Her, for housing some of my dead, for leading me in Her way, at least in part, to where I am now.
I can’t even begin to imagine the deep compassion that must be contained in Her, one that keeps watch over so many souls in Her care. Always, and in every way, I am grateful to Her for that and many other things. If you note, I also said that I cannot speak of Her or for Her, as my contact with Her has been very limited.
However, I imagine that no deity, ever, would disrespect the mysteries or sacredness of another diety or condone such a thing from another. I imagine Her not being happy with that at all.
>”I can’t imagine the deep compassion that must be contained in Her.”
Tove also apparently can’t imagine this deep compassion would extend to the unborn. Indeed, she so lacks the imagination she insists it is completely impossible and that any Heathen who believes abortion is wrong as part of their faith is wrong.
I’m starting to see why Tove insists mortals cannot question the Gods.
>However, I imagine that no deity, ever, would disrespect the mysteries or sacredness of another deity…
Says Tove who repeatedly brings up Christianity, and by extension, all abrahamic faiths which are centered around a Deity infamous for his disrespect to the mysteries and sacredness of other Gods and demands they be purged. It’s one thing to lack imagination. It’s another to blatantly ignore the reality in front of you.
But, Tove, I’ll let you in on a little secret…It isn’t just the Abrahamic God who disrespects the mysteries or sacredness of other deities.
Heck, Loki is a great example of that. Zero respect for his sacredness or mysteries when they did what they did to him. Then of course there is the poem where Thor and Odin spend the entire time insulting each other and dismissing each other’s ways as stupid.
On a more personal note, Hel and Eir pretty much despise each other. They’re pretty much an anathema to each other. Eir and her followers spend their days doing everything they can to work against the power of Hel, her mysteries, and her sacred way. In doing so, they have created many situations of “undeath” where through medical drugs (often with terrible side effects) people who would normally die are kept alive…though how much they ‘live’ is indeed a question. Death is the enemy, to be thwarted for as long and as hard as possible, at any cost or suffering, as is their sacred way and with their mysteries. In turn, Hel works to counter the workings of Eir and her followers, to restore and maintain the power of Death over Life.
One need only look at the Covid situation to see the face of Eir and her children in the fight against Hel and her ways, and this is just one of many battlegrounds where the two of them wage war against each other.
(when I called Tove to face my by the ancient ways, this was the response [my text is in color to clarify])
“By the ancient ways you claim to value and that justify your position, I am within my rights to take your life, Tove.”
My life, my soul with all its parts, and all of me, I have long ago given to Freyja. My hands are here to serve her, my body is here to answer Her call. I give my life to Her, my mother, whose spark I will always carry in me. I give it to the Great Lord Dionysus, who plugged that spark into my human family and weaved His ivy around my heart with love and violent tenderness.
You, as you are Hella’s, I leave to Hella to clean as She sees fit.
“Will you face me, Tove?”
Always, with my Gods whom I serve at my side.
“Will you uphold the ancient ways?”
No, I will only hold to Her ways, and do as She commands. My soul and my heart are Hers. Nothing else matters.
Nothing else matters.
Not the ancient ways. Not even the ancient way she invoked to claim I was wrong. It doesn’t matter. All that matters is Freya and her way. Just not the ancient ways that Freya embodied or gave to our ancestors. No, Freya’s ways, as Tove sees them. Anything else is unimportant.
“Do you value them enough to put your life on the line for them?”
Learn to separate the human from the divine. You are being a little bit of an idiot here, you know that, right?
Tove, Tove, Tove…
There is no separation between the human in divine. At least, not as you’re putting it forth here.
As Heathens, we are children of the Gods themselves. Their divinity lives in us, their sacred rites are our sacred rites. The laws and mores, the ancient ways, the things you claim do not matter (unless you’re trying to justify something) those are divine. Honor is divine as is defending it. To live a good “social” life is to live a pious life as well.
She then goes on to call me “dramatic” (I know she’s trying to mock me, but I have long been a dramatic individual on many levels), says she’ll meet me behind the Donkin Donuts on Elm str at 8 (now who is being dramatic), and then says I sound rather sick and it’s not good to kick a sick man when he’s down.
I don’t see why that should matter to Tove, seeing as she’s fine with killing a defenseless baby and justify it by “meaningless” traditions. I guess a sick man is still to much of a risk, better to mockingly play it off I suppose.
She then finishes off by saying:
Now, this is just sad, a man and a priest speaking as if he were a God.
Frankly, I have to kinda laugh at this.
Tove says she speaks for Freya, her ways and her mysteries.
Just as I speak for Hel, her ways and her mysteries.
Yet Tove insists that no, she is in the right. She speaks as if she were a God, for she carries the words of a Goddess, all while insisting that the words of any God or Messenger who speaks differently than hers are the words a crazy, arrogant, wrong, individual human who does not understand the right way of things.
Tove, who believes the ancient ways are meaningless. Tove, who cannot imagine the compassion of Hel, nor imagine that the Gods could ever disagree about anything. Tove, who believes the Gods are Prefect and Infallible, that their ways are sacred and not to be questioned, but believes that everything we have that tells us about the Gods was written by fallible men and not to be take literally or seriously. Tove, who believes all these things, and more.
Tove, you claim I speak as if I were a God.
Perhaps I do. The reason why is one of Hel’s Mysteries.
As you hold that the Gods and their mysteries are beyond questioning, I recommend you heed your own advice and not question it, simply respect it and obey it. 😉
It is Her Way, after all. Who are you as a Mortal to question Hel’s ways? According to you, you are not. Heed your own words then, priestess.
In the end, dear reader, we have (with drama, sarcasm, and piety), come to understand Tove a little better, and mostly for the worse. A priestess of Freya, who cares nothing for the old ways despite invoking them. A Heathen, who will tell you the right way to be a Heathen, while disregarding so very much of what Heathenism was and is. A priestess who bids her holy words be heeded, but will denounce the priest bearing different words as a blasphemer. A woman, guilty of the same crimes she accuses her opponent of.
My friends, Heathenism and Heathens should not walk such a path, though they too often do. As I counciled before, do not invoke the ancient ways only that suit you. Now I council further. Do not invoke the ancient ways, then dismiss them as meaningless. Those ways were given to us by the Gods. Disregard them at your peril. They were gifts to us, to show our ancestors how to live, and while we may have to face modifications to them due to the modern era, they should still be the guidance we look too, just as we would look to our elders for wisdom.
I cannot tell you how to live your lives. I can only council as Hel has taught me. Yet, I would caution anyone from heeding the words of a Heathen who tells you that the Heathen Ways of doing things are meaningless and calls those willing to stand by those ways an “idiot.” Heathenism is more than prayers to a set of Gods. It is a way of living, of thinking, of doing, in harmony with those Gods in the way those Gods taught our people to live.
Anyone can pray to Hel, or Freya, or Odin. That doesn’t make them a Heathen. Living, thinking, and worshiping in a way in harmony with the Gods and our ancient ways, occasionally mollified by current knowledge or laws, does.
If you would be a Heathen, my friends, then be Heathen.
And be proud to be a Heathen, no matter who would gainsay, insult, or demean you. For their words are as empty as their souls, incapable of finding meaning in the very things that make us who we are. Do not let their words have power over you.